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I want to get better at making a whiskey recipe

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Post time 2022-9-22 12:08:53 | Show all posts |Read mode
Looking for advice on where to focus and research when it comes to recipes. I have made a few whiskey or whiskey style spirits, including UJSSM, one disastrous attempt at rye, some basic AG, sugarheads, etc. One AG which stands out to me is one that I made using toasted quick oatmeal and which has a strong dark chocolate note to it. I’m not sure if that’s my ideal flavor, but it’s definitely interesting and I hope that the Badmo it’s aging in will turn it into something special in a couple years.
I want to do better. Obviously, I need to work on my skill with the technical aspects of the process, and I’m doing so. And I don’t have any complaints about the things I’ve made so far, but I know there is room for improvement. I see a lot of recipes with very specific grain bills, specifically malts, etc., and I know there’s a good reason why an experienced distiller would go for something like that. I have a lot of culinary experience and appreciate the subtlety and variety that comes with using just the right ingredients in the right way.
Of course, there is no one perfect recipe for anything in this world, and I can’t expect anyone to just hand me the recipe that I’ll love being all others. I’m just looking for some guidance on how to get there, based on other people’s experience. I don’t have a home brew shop nearby, so it’s either drive about an hour each way (which will be rare at best due to my schedule) or order on line. That makes it difficult to explore a wide variety of malts quickly or inexpensively. I also have limited time to run the still, so an experimental batch could easily be all that I make in the space of a month or more. Both of these have discouraged me from just trying a bunch of different recipes to see what I like.
My taste runs toward bourbon. If anyone is familiar with Corner Creek, that’s been my favorite so far, though I can’t find it any more unless I order it by the case. I’ve had a couple local ryes that were excellent (though I’ve not generally been a huge fan of rye in the past), and both my wife and I enjoy a decent Irish or Canadian whiskey. While I do appreciate some Scotch, it’s not my favorite, especially the iodine which is so prominent in so many. Neither my palate nor my vocabulary are refined enough to break down all the flavors in an excellent bourbon and tell you what I like about it, unfortunately.
With all that said, where would you point my attention next? Learn to work with rye? Wheat? Speciality malts? I’m open to anything within reason.
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Post time 2022-9-22 12:44:14 | Show all posts
I suggest starting by learning how to brew (all grain) beers.  That will teach you the flavor contribution of various cereal grains.  It will teach you the mash process and fermentation processes.  Practice, practice, practice.
As Geoff would point out, anyone can follow a recipe to make bread.  But it is the experience that turns you into “a baker”.  
Recipe formulation is art.  The palette is defined by the grains and the artistry is created by the painter/brewer.  Nobody creates a “masterpiece” as their 1st painting … it requires perseverance and practice.  Skill is an “acquired” honor.
Sorry, no “get rich quick” answers here.  Just encouragement to keep trying.
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K
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Post time 2022-9-22 12:54:31 | Show all posts
Honestly, the recipe's posted up in the tried and true section are the best place to start as a novice. You need to establish a good baseline process and recipe "from tried and true" in order for first make something that is an objectively good product, with good cuts. Gotta walk before you can run.
Personally, being more creative person with a huge homebrewing background, this sentiment didn't feel right at first. Then I tasted my first, decently aged product and thought it was awesome, then it all made sense to me. Even a very simple AG recipe like Carolina Bourbon can have plenty of complexity. No sense over-complicating something that works. That's why they're in tried and true. The descriptions given in the threads and results of others should give you an indication of what to expect in the final product. Once you've made some different bourbons, with different grain bills and have given them some proper time to age, you'll start to detect why they taste the way they do and can tune/tweak the recipe from there, making them your own.
After many, many batches of bourbon, I'm finding I'm naturally drawn to recipes from Shineoncrazydiamond. His stuff is unique, but awesome. He ventured out and started trying new things, but had the experience to do it right. Honey Bear Bourbon is excellent. I love it so much I've filled up two 5 gallon barrels with it, which for me, is a major commitment. He also has some recipe's that aren't in tried and true, but totally should be. CROW bourbon is another excellent product and is reminiscent of something more traditional, but the addition of toasted oats takes it to the next level. I have some aging for a little over a year and it's already awesome, can't wait to see how it turns out with even more time. He also has a Sundae Chocolate Bourbon which is on my to do list!
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Post time 2022-9-22 13:03:27 | Show all posts
I also have a great deal to learn about making whiskey. As part of my practice, I have been making whiskeys from a single ingredient to get a sense of what it brings to the table.
Jimbo's single malt wheat, Booner's casual corn, an all barley. For rye I did a small low alcohol 2 gallon batch and ran it with  a mis-cut sugarhead to great effect. The small batch made the rye ferment pretty manageable.
I think my take away is to get better at whiskey it's necessary to just make a lot of whiskey...Warning: slightly inebriated novice!
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Post time 2022-9-22 13:40:31 | Show all posts
That belongs in Notable and Quotable!
Well said!My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D
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Post time 2022-9-22 13:46:26 | Show all posts
I’d recommend making batch after batch of bourbon on a pot still with varying grain bills each time. If you enjoy bourbon you’ll like all of them. Take notes and shoot to age a good year. Experiment with narrow and wider cuts. Clean hearts of hearts for early drinking white cut and wider for barrel cut. Experiment with enzymes, and tried and true recipes - substitute different grains perhaps with some intent or perhaps with abandon. I learn from mistakes and successes!
Cheers and good luck!
-j————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————
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Post time 2022-9-22 14:04:29 | Show all posts
I think Oatmeal and SS have it right.
Learn to brew beer, the techniques and flavors come over to AG whiskey.
What kind of beer do you like? Pull the grain bills over (there are some malts used to aid head retention, you can skip those)
Make recipes that are nothing but corn, rye, wheat, and all base malt barley, make your cuts and set aside some of the white so you can compare and blend them. Then change just one thing, add some chocolate wheat to whatever base malt see what that does for you. On and on it goes, but you can always blend recipes together post distillation. There are thousands of specialty malts out there, but a lot of them are very similar. Start by choosing one out of a couple different categories, something like  a roast barley around 300l, a caramel 120, and a biscuit or honey.... once you find a preference start working in things that are close by that. For instance if you like the 300l roast barley try a lighter chocolate and a darker roast.
Same deal with aging, make a big enough batch of something to age it on a few different things, toasted oak, charred oak, toasted and charred oak, raw peach wood etc, then side by side them. This is a good place to use some of the "rapid aging" techniques, since you are interested in the wood contribution rather than the aging effect.
A good way to increase your tasting vocabulary is to watch tasting videos on youtube, some channels are more entertaining than others, don't get turned off if you don't like the first video you see, try a different one, don't assume anything anyone says is gospel, don't expect to find the same things as they do, we all taste and smell differently. Find tasting notes on the whiskey you like, see what other people are getting off of it, see if you find the same. I like doing tastings with friends, they will pick up or isolate something I cant find, or verbalize.:)
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Post time 2022-9-22 14:09:03 | Show all posts
I’ve been doing a lot of research on flavoring and whiskey making.  One thing that I keep coming back to is something I’ve seen stated a few times in my research.  
The agreed on percentages of what makes up the final flavor of a whiskey is as follows: 10% Yeast Strain, 15% Distillation, 25% Small Grains and 50% Maturation.
Something to think about as you consider what to improve.  Here’s some notes I’ve gathered over time on the grain flavors.  Apologies as some statement seem contradictory, but these are raw notes I’ve gathered from credible sources and sharing to potentially save you gathering the same.
Barley
Malted barley produces nutty, smoky, some chocolate or cocoa flavors and a flavor often described as cereal or possibly toast. There’s also a distinctive characteristic simply referred to as malt.
Barley imparts a warm, roasted toffee taste to a spirit
Unmalted barley enhances the grain and cereal qualities of the whiskey and introduces light sharp and sour fruity notes like green apple and lemon.
Rye
Rye gives spicy flavors of black and green pepper, anise, mint and, of course, rye bread. Rye imparts a dryness in the mouthfeel that’s sometimes referred to as leathery. Rye can enhance clove and nutmeg flavors from the barrel. If it’s poorly distilled, rye can introduce heavy menthol or camphor flavors into whiskey.
Wheat
Wheat doesn’t provide a substantial set of flavors on its own but does provide a very light bready-ness, some honey and touches of mint. It can provide a gentleness to whiskey and showcases flavors from the other grains or the barrel.
When wheat replaces rye in a bourbon mashbill—often called a wheater—and ages upward of 8 years, the expected result is of long, rounded, and complex caramel notes. Wheated bourbons present French bakery aromas and certain flavors are consistently found in the genre, regardless of who distilled them. They’re often vanilla and caramel drenched with hints of citrus and delicate spice, but could be as accurately described for what they are not—wheated bourbons do not coat the palate with the same baking spice notes as their ryed counterparts. “I like to tell people it is pretty much identical to the difference between wheat bread and rye bread,” says Denny Potter, co-master distiller at Heaven Hill, makers of wheated bourbons Larceny and Old Fitzgerald. “Wheat will be softer and lighter and rye will be spicier and more robust.”
The contemporary thought is that young wheated bourbons don’t taste as good. “Rye grain, either in rye whiskey or in ryed bourbon, masks youth. Wheated bourbon needs more time in the barrel to have a comparable ‘mature’ taste,”
Malting rye or wheat gives a soft grain sweetness to the final product.
Corn
There’s a lot of confusion about corn in whiskey and it’s often mis-credited for the sweetness, vanilla and maple syrup notes in bourbon. No grain actually provides sugar content in whiskey – sugar doesn’t pass through distillation – but because YD#2 corn isn’t a strong source of flavors in and of itself, the oak sugars and vanillins from that new, charred oak barrel shine through.
Corn whiskey is your best bet if you want an easy-drinking spirit. Its sweet honey, browned butter, and creamy flavors create an alluring base to keep you sipping, while its notes of toasted marshmallow — derived from the use of charred American oak barrels — add a top note that sets you over the edge.
The flavor of corn is prevalent fresh off the still in the White Dog; but over years of aging, the corn becomes neutral, and lends mostly in the overall sweetness to the finished product. *Corn is not a small grain.
Aged corn whiskeys — made of 80% corn — and many bourbons tend to carry a clear popcorn note amidst the sweet vanilla that tends to dominate. Unaged corn whiskey, like moonshine, wears its corn influence on its sleeve, and the primary taste an imbiber will get is sweet, buttered popcorn.
Corn’s role in whiskey is to provide cheap carbohydrates for the yeast to convert into ethanol. Ideally, very little flavor comes from the corn itself. Heavy corn notes – especially burnt corn oil, popcorn or “movie theater butter” – are often considered faults in bourbon. This is why bourbon recipes always include a proportion of the “flavoring grains” of barley, rye and/or wheat. Corn also introduces compounds that can heighten the ethanol burn of whiskey which bourbon distillers must be vigilant to remove either during distillation, maturation or filtration. The modern distiller’s corn is Yellow Dent #2
White corn introduces some lighter fruit and floral notes like green apple.
Blue corn imparts more nuttiness and a distinct “foxiness” or grape/brandy like character.
Red corn strains like Bloody Butcher – used by Wood Hat and also New Liberty in Pennsylvania and Jeptha Creed Distillery in Kentucky – may introduce the most flavor of any heirloom corn strain with an orchestra-like complexity of nuttiness, smokiness and a multitude of individual fruit notes. High Wire Distilling Co. in South Carolina has revived Jimmy Red corn which they say creates nutty, sweet and mineralic flavors and a creamy mouthfeel.
Other:
Triticale is wheat-rye hybrid that produces – as expected – spicy and peppery notes similar to rye but generally softer.
There’s no consensus on the flavors of rice in whiskey – possibly due to the large number of varieties available – but recurring flavors include lighter floral and delicate fruit notes.
The grand-daddy of all whiskey grain processes is peat smoking malted barley. Peat is partially decayed vegetation or organic matter, kind of like early-stage coal, which was historically used to heat homes in northern Europe. By burning it to dry to the freshly-malted barley, distillers introduced a distinctive smokey, earthy “peat reek” into the spirit.
Westland Distillery in Washington uses a locally harvested peat rich with a local plant called Labrador tea which apparently smells of rosemary and lavender. Wood Buffalo Brewing Co. in Canada once had their grains accidentally smoked by a wildfire.
Back in the US, Tenth Ward Distilling in Maryland makes a Smoked Corn Whiskey which is as the name describes. Even Woodford Reserve got in the smoked-grain game with their 2017 Master’s Collection Cherry Wood Smoked Barley release. There are actually quite a lot of distilleries experimenting with smoke from a variety of sources in their whiskeys.
Grains can be toasted, roasted and in other ways processed to develop special character.
Chocolating is exactly as the term implies – the cocoa note in Corsair’s Ryemaggedon is unmistakable. Rabbit Hole Distillery in Kentucky includes honey malted barley in their Bourbon’s grain bill which, unsurprisingly, adds sweet floral notes to it.
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Post time 2022-9-22 14:55:13 | Show all posts
Somewhere in there they forgot fermentation. It's more than just yeast selection, it impacts your heads and tails volume, off-of-hearts flavor, ABV etc. Temperature of the ferment, available nutrients, yeast colony size, infections, pH (starting and final), fermentability of the wort all effect the ferment. This is also where esters happen, and just because a yeast is known for pushing certain esters doesn't mean it will, you usually have to coax them to do what is asked.:)
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 Author| Post time 2022-9-22 19:24:48 | Show all posts
That’s fine with me. If I wanted perfect booze right away, I’d have to settle for paying someone else to have all the fun. I’m all for learning and practice, but I found myself getting a bit confused by the variety of information, advice, and recipes out there.
Thank you all so much for the replies so far. It’s given me some ideas to consider and stuff to work on.
I’m not a huge fan of beer, mainly because it occasionally leaves me in some discomfort, feeling like I’m choking on something even though I’m not. I have no idea why. That said, I quite like some of the wheat beers, Hefeweizen, Octoberfest, and other less aggressively hopped beers. I never really considered brewing my own beer for purely practical reasons. I don’t/can’t drink enough of it to justify the work, and I have heard that it requires attention at specific times. My work has me gone for several days at a time, completely unpredictably, so anything that needs attention at regular intervals isn’t practical. Compared to distilling, where I can leave something sitting for a week or more and just get to it when I get to it. With all that said, I appreciate the point of comparing flavor notes in beer and whiskey, and it gives me something to learn about.
Dougmatt, that’s incredibly helpful to me, thank you! It gives me some idea where to look, both for recipes that I might like, and for where to modify a recipe to better suit my tastes.
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Post time 2022-9-22 19:47:56 | Show all posts
So far, my observations have been:
Highly roasted malts do seem to have a big effect on the spirit. These are usually called "chocolate malt" or "black patent malt". To me, chocolate malt at 5% comes through like cocoa powder or dark chocolate. One local distiller says they tried a higher %, 10%, and got more of a coffee flavor.
Rye is well known to produce a big effect, I agree with previous comments on it. Spicy, peppery, minty...
I notice a distinct grainy flavor from using 6 row barley malt vs distillers malt or pale ale malt. It's sort of bready, doughy, crackery. Something like that.
I have tried some toasted malts that have a great affect on beer, but didn't seem to contribute much in a spirit. Might just be my untrained pallette/nose though.
I think maybe it's difficult for the toasted malt flavors to stand out from the barrel flavors.
Good luck!
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Post time 2022-9-22 22:39:38 | Show all posts
Your palate & mine are in synch.  I want to like Scotch since I have Scottish ancestry, but the peat & iodine tones are not appealing when too strong.  I hate rye bread, but (go figure) I absolutely love rye whiskey.  Ya, I know, I'm weird...
If you like Irish whiskey, get some Golden Promise malted barley.  The stuff is pure magic to the taste buds.  One of my fav's recipes is 4# GP, 4# flaked barley, 1# cornmeal, #1 toasted oats.
+1 to this.  I've found SCD's CROW bourbon in Recipe Development is my go-to.  You can play around with the grain ratios to suit your tastes.  I reversed the corn & rye and called it "High Rye CROW" and it's almost a year in the glass.  Sugarhead is long gone...
Have fun, keep reading, and experiment.
DuckThere are two times of year:  FOOTBALL SEASON and... Waiting For Football Season
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