Mixed fermentation lag time

SRJHops

This question answers itself, probably, but wondering if others could share their experience/thoughts...
Yesterday I pitched some diastatic saison yeast into low ph (3.5-ish), low SG (1.018) wort. After 24 hours I'm still not seeing any activity, so starting to worry... BUT I'm guessing I just need to be patient... for how long?
I used two packets of Philly Sour, 5 gallons, OG 1.048. As usual, after the acidification phase, the Philly is now paused for few days before it starts to ferments out the rest of the sugar. That's when I pitched the 3711.
I did not take a ph reading but (prior to pitching the saison yeast) the SG dropped from 1.048 to 1.018, so that indicates the Philly did its work and likely dropped the ph into the mid 3's.
I plan to give it another day for the saison yeast to kick in... but after that I might pitch some more yeast...
Thoughts?

hotbeer

Don't be in such a hurry. I think it takes some time for the yeast to begin breaking down the complex sugars into stuff they can chew on. You aren't keeping it too cool for the yeast you added are you?
I might give it 2 - 3 more days before I wonder about it.

SRJHops

Thanks. I've got it set to 71 right now, which is about where I like to pitch my saisons. I actually had the Philly at 77, but cooled it down to pitch the saison yeast. My understanding is Philly produces more acid at higher temps, and I also gave it some extra glucose (corn sugar).

SRJHops

Well, after 48 hours of no apparent activity and no drop in SG, I decided to pitch some more yeast. I had actually planned to pitch it in the original recipe, so I had it on hand, but held off because I didn't think it was needed. I figure it can't hurt to pitch more, and I didn't want the Philly to start back up and start chewing all the remaining sugar.
The downside is I'll never know if waiting 3 days would have been enough for the yeast to get going. But I'm used to my fermentations taking off in under 12 hours (Philly Sour notwithstanding - it tends to take 24), so I indeed lost patience after 48. I'll try to remember to report back on the final beer!

IslandLizard

Can 3711 be happy in that sour environment? A pH in the mid 3-s is darn brutal.

SRJHops

That is my question... Is it too sour for another yeast? The manufacturer recommended pitching the second yeast after the acidification phase. But is the pH too low for it to work? I pitched be-134 on top this morning...
Worst case I get a sour. But I want a sour Saison.

bhanson

Not much is going to be "happy" starting out in a mid-3 range unless it's a massive culture. That's near where acid sanitizers work. As fermentation progresses, the pH drops further still.

SRJHops

Yeah, I clearly have a lot to learn more here... So, what can I do now? Wort is likely at 3.4 or so. My plan was to pitch the Saison yeast and end up with a sour Saison.
I guess if the Saison yeast doesn't work I might switch gears and rack onto some fruit.

mashpaddled

What you're probably seeing here is a combination of acid shock to the 3711 and minimal fermentable sugar for 3711 to consume.
At this point it may make sense to just let the yeast in the beer do its thing until FG is reached and accept the beer for what it is. If you are dead set on trying to get 3711 to operate in the beer, you need to read up on acid shock (specifically on acid shock starters) and repitch. For the time and money involved, it may not be worth it this go around.

SRJHops

Will do. Thanks much!

HM-2

Yeah the only stuff that'll normally play ball at pH ~3.5 is things like Brettanomyces. For a sour Saison you'd have been much better fermenting with a Saison strain first then souring with lacto in the fermenter.
You could always lob some simple sugars into to try and kickstart fermentation but I reckon at that pH it's probably a lost cause. All you'll end up doing is killing otherwise perfectly viable yeast.

SanPancho

i dont think there's a simple answer to the yeast question. but if i had done this and was making a second batch, i think i'd pitch seperately and combine. i dont drink alot of saison, but the ones i think seem to be more popular are tart (pH approaching 4) vs sour (pH in low 3s). so let the philly get super sour. let the saison get super dry. then combine. sour dilutes to tart. and hopefully the saison sticks around to get it super dry.

SRJHops

Adding some sugar isn't a bad idea... The Philly Sour will keep working, but I need the saison to kick in. I will try a bit of corn sugar...

SRJHops

Might be the way I will have to go... Or maybe I pitch the Saison sooner next time, before the pH gets so low...

SRJHops

Do you think a massive pitch could have overcome this? I usually pitch big, but this one was at 1.028 when I pitched the 3711, so I figured that would do the trick. The original recipe had the Be-134, and I had considered one more too. (I usually pitch really big and have had great results.)