Structured Packing

eljefe3126

In the chemical industry, this is what they call structured packing.  It's layers of metal gauze (or plate), crimped into v-shaped corrugations at an angle to vertical of 45-60 degrees.  Then each layer is placed back-to-back with the previous layer, so that droplets can bounce left or right as they descend like pinballs in a pachinko machine.  The round bands have tabs that intercept droplets clinging to the wall of the column and redirect them to the interior where the packing is.
Has anyone here experimented with this stuff?  It seems like it would be easy to make if one just had a means of corrugating strips of metal gauze.

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OtisT

I went looking to buy something like this years back, something I could slip whole into a column, but I could not find anything small enough for hobby size columns.  It was all industrial size stuff.  I wish you better luck than I had in my search.Otis’ Pot and Thumper, Dimroth Condenser:  Pot-n-Thumper/Dimroth
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StillerBoy

I'm of the view there's to much open space, plus the band with the tabs really serve nothing, as the distillate will just follow the inside the band instead of the column..   waste of time and funds compared to some other packing doing a good job for the hobbyist..
Packing need to have the least amount of open space between the them for it to work at maximum efficient..
Mars" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein

shadylane

I disagree.
"Packing materials must meet a few requirements to perform effectively. They must not interact chemically with the fluids being packed. They must be strong but lightweight. They must contain enough passageways that the liquid material can flow through without obstructing the liquid or causing drops in pressure. They must also allow for the proper amount of contact between liquid and gas."

https://www.machengineering.com/random- ... d-packing/

Saltbush-Bill

Nice link Shady , some interesting reading.

Stonecutter

+1
Just took a brief look. It reads easy enough.

Shady I like that quote from the linkTo focus on a single variable in order to maximize efficiency would be folly.
First you’ve got the critical selection of packing material.
And Pressure drop and liquid obstruction are intertwined with the “open space” within the column.  

It gets so easy to simplify a relatively complex function like reflux because so much experimentation has been documented here already.Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

StillerBoy

What is a "relatively complex function like reflux" mean to the hobbyist..
Refuxing is a simple activity..  it's balancing the power used with the take off rate in relation to the packing used for the highest ABV possible..  different packing material require different setting or dialing in, providing different take off rate and ABV levels..
To simplify it at the hobbyist level means the usage of a packing that provide the maximum ABV with the lease power usage and maximum take off rate in the lease amount time..
The two packing that provide such, that provide such for the hobbyist, is lava rocks of the right sizing and SSP.. yeah there are other material that "work" as packing material but are not nearly as good as those mention..
Do or take the time to do such, and determine for one self, we are hobbyist first and not working to match what professionals are doing, which in large part is what the article was written for..
Mars" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein

Stonecutter

So which is it? Power usage and takeoff rate or space between packing?Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

shadylane

I disagree about the bands and tabs being useless.
Once upon a time folks were using centering rings to do the same job.
But everyone was using rings that were too big and causing localized flooding.

StillerBoy

I can see being inexperience can cause one to question..  time will develop experience, then it will all come together..
Mars" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein

Salt-Must-Flow

I'd say, unless someone has tried it and reports back then it's all just speculation. Doesn't that make sense? Even if one person tried it, it's just anecdotal evidence. Considering the cost of structured packing, I'd just use Lava Rock and/or make my own SPP like StillerBoy said.
Who knows ... maybe some company will start up and make laser sintered 3D printed structured packing out of stainless and copper for a reasonable price with performance data to back it up. Wouldn't that be cool.

StillerBoy

Yeah they were ideas from inexperienced hobbyist with no consideration, and over time the idea fell by the roadway, but there are still a few inexperienced who belief they do good..
Any attempt at making the returning distillate to travel down the center by using tabs or centering rings, no matter what size used, is a total waste of effort..
Distillate will take the easiest path down, and centering ring just disrupt for a few mm only and create some lost of performance..  and the other reason is that boiler and column are never truly level, and the distillate will always travel to the off angle side..  something that is never talked about, being on level went refluxing..
Mars" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein

Stonecutter

I can see being inexperience can cause one to question..  time will develop experience, then it will all come together..
Mars

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Oh I see.
Well, I’m glad it makes so much sense to you StillerBoy. Maybe one day, I’ll be so knowledgeable that I’ll be able to chew my food twice just like you can. Then it will ALL come together.Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

Salt-Must-Flow

Yeah they were ideas from inexperienced hobbyist with no consideration, and over time the idea fell by the roadway, but there are still a few inexperienced who belief they do good..
Any attempt at making the returning distillate to travel down the center by using tabs or centering rings, no matter what size used, is a total waste of effort..
Distillate will take the easiest path down, and centering ring just disrupt for a few mm only and create some lost of performance..  and the other reason is that boiler and column are never truly level, and the distillate will always travel to the off angle side..  something that is never talked about, being on level went refluxing..
MarsI don't think the vast majority of home distillers uses multiple centering rings throughout their column these days. I personally use ONE just above my sight glass ONLY to keep the reflux falling through the center of my sight glass rather than it flowing against the glass. Flowing against the glass annoys the piss out of me. I want to see it falling through the center. Rather than just a reducing collar, I cut it and bent every petal at an opposite angle in attempt to reduce vapor restriction.

tfullqmw2ir.jpg

As far as the the column being perfectly level, there was a thread here within a couple years ago where a guy deliberately tilted his column way off level and claimed to find no difference in performance. I still use a bubble level when I set up mine though. Why not right? I'll look for that link, but I can't find it right now.Last edited by Salt Must Flow on Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stonecutter

I believe that was a Yummyrum experiment SMFFreedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

Salt-Must-Flow

Yeah I tried to find it, but can't find it right now.

Yummyrum

Yeah I tried to find it, but can't find it right now.This
viewtopic.php?p=7683367#p7683367My recommended goto . https://web.archive.org/web/20171228074 ... ory/theory
Some of it is outdated but most of the basics are correct .