Help running in reflux

kingy

I've bought a neutralizer without the plates until I can afford them. I mainly do rum and whisky in pot still mode. This setup has made some good stuff quicker compared to old 2inch copper pot still that mac made about 12 years ago.
However Ive tried to make some neutral the first lot was awesome must've winged it.
However the latest was a bit bitey maybe to much heads. It was hard to cut as the hearts cut seemed to be huge.
So I have a few questions. I'm re running this tomorrow.
I have 30litres of stripped and now single refluxed tpw. Tomorrow will be the 2nd reflux.
What I done last time was heat up slowly until drips came out and got a slow drip drip dribble spirt going.
Maybe about 400mls at 88% had a thin little stream (like a pot still spirit run) then turn on rc, was in total reflux for about 15mins didn't realise how sensitive the rc was.
As I turned down the rc water until I got some more drip drip drip.
Product started coming off at 90% and didn't move for the entire run until I tasted tails I turned it off.
I was collecting 400mls every 20mins.
Questions are
Could I do better, do I need to be in full reflux for a longer time?
Do I need to turn the heat up and boil harder and turn the water flow on more to get better reflux for a higher % and then dial back the water flow to control out put or do I just simmer the boil and control output with the water flow.
Thanks.You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.Last edited by kingy on Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Howard

i usually keep the still in full reflux on a medium rolling boil, not letting anything get past the RC.
it takes me about 40mins to get to EQ
i used to reflux for an hour in full reflux, but one day i noticed a temp change which i think indicates the still is in EQ  :think:
i agree, the RC is sensitive to changes in the water, it's best to do small adjustments to the water and wait to see the result (not touching the power at this stage)
400mls /20 mins, or 1.2l/hour is in the good range for a 2" i believe, but i'm not sure on a 4" like yours.
i have a 2" CM and after getting the column in EQ, i turn the water down slowly until i get the drip drip dribble, and push the heads out slowly.

again, i don't have a 4", but would an increase in the column height with packing, get you from 90% up to the 95-96% mark?
or the addition of plates of course.
i assume you have (copper mesh?) packing in there.

kingy

Yea I have copper in the column. Do you think a harder boil would cause smearing or it doesn't matter as it's all being refluxed anyway. I havnt tried a long full reflux before turning the water down to release some vapour.
I can see me finally learning this still then upgrading to bubble plates and having to learn a new still all over again.
Tomorrow i might try running it a little harder and full reflux for an hour before dialling back the water flow.
Thanks for your input mate.

The-Stig

Just so everybody’s clear , that’s a 500mm x4” packed section full of copper mesh  :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Howard

i'm pretty new to all this (2.5 years) but my understanding of reflux v power etc is this... :smile:
a hard boil will smear and i don't understand your 'it doesn't matter as its being refluxed'
i think of a column like the refinery model that stacks the different volatile vapours with different boiling temps.
so after about 40mins in full reflux with a medium rolling boil on my 2", i think the vapours are stacked up, with the lower temps (ie headsy stuff) at the top of the column.
this is eventually indicated by a small reduction change in temp (just 2C) at the top of the column, just before the RC.
at this point there is a slight pressure in the column caused by the RC 'blocking' the vapour path.
this is the point when i don't want to make changes to the power to collapse the stacking.
it's probably a good idea to have the column well insulated, i have experienced the effects of external changes in temp (even a cold wind)
then i slowly reduce the water to the RC with no power change.
i wait after each change and observe the thermo just after the RC, which has been at ambient temp throughout the 40 min reflux.
when the top vapours start to creep past the RC, i can see the thermo after the RC change, so then i leave the water and bleed off the heads slowly.
this seems to concentrate the fores & heads into the first few jars.
i collect in 250ml jars, the 1st is usually disgusting, jar 2 & 3 are headsy, jar 4 ends heads/ begins hearts, jar 5/6 seem ok but usually end up in feints jar.
after hearts start, people can make small gradual changes to water and power to suit their production/method.
that's my theory anyway  :?

kingy

Thanks fellas, I've been playing with it all day and it and was still only getting 90% alc. Then it dawned on me maybe im running it to slow as my mates turbo 500 runs full noise on 2000w i think.
It appears I havnt been throwing enough heat at it. All this time I've been worried about smearing and only using 1 element at 50%. Got the shits today and turned the heat up to around 90% and got some good water flow into the rc and got some good reflux and started collecting and bam 94%.
So tomorrow I'll throw it all back in again and run it properly haha.

RC-Al

Abv aint everything, it can be 95 and still taste like ass.
Your running without plates, 500 of packed will only get you so far, especially in larger diameters.
Fill the sections with some packing and the good times will roll, your not going to make "true" neutral with it, but vodka is meant to have flavour, try one of the wheat recipes.
Try some pot still recipes (bourbon, scotch, rum)  to get your feet wet before the bubble plates happen for you.

kingy

I've been pot stilling for over 10 years and can make a good whisky and rum, this neutral stuff I thought would be easier, yea I know I need plates to make it better and easier for cuts etc. My run today was the same as the other day. I'm fairly sure I'm running it to slow and not getting enough reflux.
Should a reflux still have more or less power input compared to pot stilling the same volume. Im heading down  the path of it needs more power to the boiler to get a good reflux going and draw off slowly but also have the boiler pushing some more vapour into the column as I draw from it otherwise all the vapour will all drop and smear. That's my theory from today's efforts anyway.
If I screw tomorrow's run up. The misses and friends will have to just drink my rum and whisky or go without.  ;-)
Until I get plates.
Surely if a t500 or alcoengine run full power on a 25litre wash with a 2000w element, My 4 inch with 30litres of low wines should be running about the same heat.Last edited by kingy on Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RC-Al

Its a happy dream that i struggle with myself lols
Yes it def needs more power, your 500 of packing is only 5-6   plates out of 16 needed.  You can only make up 3-4 plates with reflux at best (smeared to hell) with a snail pace output.
To get to neutral with what you have takes many runs, when the dunder tastes like water, your done...

kingy

Thanks mate, well tomorrow's run  will be stripped and tripple refluxed lol. Ill throw a bit more power at it and see how I go. For around  the  same volume in the boiler  when pot stilling I usually run around 60% power for 1 element. I'll try running at 80-90% power tomorrow and see how I go with a better water flow and reflux. I made some good clean ethanol the first time I played around with it but cant remember what I did. I defo fluked it.
Maybe I need another 500mm packed section then get 5 plates later on.  I'll have to cut a hole in my shed roof tho to fit it in  :))
Oh yea, I happy with vodka or neutral atm just something clean to make stuff with.Last edited by kingy on Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wellsy

Hey kingly I did WBAB washes through my 5 star 4 inch pot still for vodka. I did strip runs, spirit runs with cuts, then spirit runs again of those hearts and people enjoy the vodka.
I then got a 4 plate set up and that smoothed out the feel of the vodka at the cost of some flavour.  My Russian daughter in law likes the pot stilled stuff for shots and the plates stuff for sipping.
It all gets down to what you like mate, and given we dilute back to 40% abv what does it really matter if you collect at 90 or 93 :)
I must admit after all that I was too timid when I first started with my plates and needed to have more faith in my RC and keep m0re power going to my heating elements

kingy

Hi wellsy yea the first lot of vodka I made came out really well and the cuts where easy and distinguished the last few runs have been tasting smeared and more along the pot still route. Today will be the 4th time in the boiler. I've been reading a fair bit about under powering a reflux and not getting enough reflux and stacking the column. I suppose I need to boil harder but try not to boil to hard. I know it's achievable because it's been done on this still.
Hopefully today i get to understand how she likes to be played with.

Wellsy

Try and take lots of notes mate, there will be no absolute values that the still likes but there will be a range it is usually comfortable. I was so anal that I recorded shed temp. Starting cooling water temp, how much that temp went up. Voltage input times etc. it just gives you a bit of a starting point each time.
The best and worst thing about this hobby is you are always learning and being forced to think about what is going on with your still. It changes so much depending on what you are running, wash or low wines etc
Keep trying and you will get there :)

kingy

She's running sweet today, turns out I wasn't running it hard enough and getting good reflux, heads to hearts was a clear cut. Still in the hearts now and tasting amazing. I'll still leave it to air for a few days.  Ran 1 element on 75% power and full reflux for 1 hour before collecting a schooner at 93% alc roughly every 20mins. Probably could speed it up a bit but figured why mess with it when it's been humming along good all day .
Cheers .  :teasing-nutkick:Last edited by kingy on Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.