S-23 Time and Temp

bracconiere

i just pitched 2 packs of S-23 into 10 gallons of 1.060 wort chilled to 51f...
just kinda need a refresher on temps for lager yeasts...i picked 51f because it's in the middlish ground of 58f and 48f...
is it TOO cold though? i'm shooting for around a two week ferment time.

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dmtaylor

Try it and find out. I've only used S-23 one time. It didn't make a bad beer, but also wasn't great IMHO.
Don't ever rush your lagers if fermenting cold. If you want it done faster, warm it up.

bracconiere

so your vote is let it rock the 51, and report back? kinda the safety dance version of i can't drive 55....

Protos

I like S-23 very much. I like it way more than W34/70, it's a unique strain that produces a clean Lager with a tiniest bit estery oomph.
It's not an all-purpose Lager yeast though. It won't make a perfect German Pilsner: it's a bit too oomphy for that.
However, it's the only dry yeast to make the genuine Wiener Lager. Also, it's the best dry option for the true historical Polish Baltic Porter. Much better than M84.
I think of it as of perfect yeast for all things Austro-Hungarian, be that Wiener or all sorts of Bohemian. And also for all things Polish: Baltic Porter and Polish Pilsners that stand closer to Czech than to German.
Wiener, Czech & Polish Lagers, Baltic Porter. That's all.
Don't try anything German or "International", you'll be disappointed (and that's where most of the complains for this yeast comes from). I don't know much about S-23 in American recipes, I rarely brew American Lagers, and when I do I use W34/70.
It's a warm-loving yeast. 51F is a bit too cold for it. At such a low temp it could just drop off (another reason for many internet complaints). I ferment it no lower than 12C/54F, and ideally at 14C/57F. It must have some tiny esters, it's not a fault with this strain.

bracconiere

Thanks for the response, that idea is probably going to be my next brew!

Protos

In last two Lagering Seasons, I brewed two three classic Baltic Porters: a Polish (Okocim), a Latvian (Aldaris) and a Ukrainian (Lwiwski) versions, all with S-23. All three came out awesome. Previously, I used M84 for this style and was less satisfied. It turns out, Baltic Porter loves it some chewy low-attenuating estery yeast, which description S-23 fits perfectly.
Which kind of beer is that you're fermenting now with S-23?

bracconiere

well it's home malt, the oven creeped up to 200f when i was kilning, so it came out a bit darker then i wanted. it was only like an hour at 200f before i caught it though, so it's a kinda redish light brown hue. i added 2oz of santiam hops at 45 minutes, 10 gallon batch....
I'll call it Arizona A/C Chill.
being i know it's not going to taste like silk, like a great lager. i'm hoping for a lightly toasted wonder bread flavor?

Protos

In my opinion, for S-23 the darker the grist the better. So, I'd say you nailed a perfect match.
I was worrying you were brewing a 1.060 Imperial Pilsner which would add to the poor yeast's bad rap afterwards.
Many blame it for producing a substandard Pilsner. And they are right. It's another thing that this yeast isn't meant for brewing Pilsners.

bracconiere

well, i'll find out!

Slim-M

I haven’t used S-23 in years but I just kegged up a batch I brewed 2 weeks ago and I pitch CellarScience Berlin which I think is the same . I agree with Protos I think S-23 may get a bad rap unfairly.
What I’m about to say I’m
Not recommending just sharing my experiment. I made a sort of amber Vienna type lager and fermented at 63 degrees intentionally for 10 days the bumped to 67 for 3 days and off to the keg. I will lager for a few weeks at 35 and try it out. I want to see what it does. I seem to remember making a Steam Beer with it years ago and thinking it did well but my old notes weren’t the best. When racking my fg sample it had a definite red apple aroma to my sniffer.

bracconiere

ok, back to my question...i just had to open my fermenter to make sure it was active, it is barley. but at 51f, and being i don't want to have to keep opening the fermenter to peak at it, it's in a SS milk pail.
what do you guys think 2 weeks, three? let it go 4 weeks, and it's a guarantee?

Slim-M

I think if I was you & if I had temp control I would go a little warmer like 55-58 & let it roll for another 7 days then bump it up to the mid to upper 60s for 3 days.

bracconiere

sound advice, but i'm having fun with it at 51f just for the hell of it. i mean 58f, mightest well be an ale at 62f!  

Slim-M

Best of luck! Well to answer you question in post 11 I think I would give it 2 weeks minimum at that temp then take a gravity reading prior to your diacetyl rest then go from there.

bracconiere

so your guesstimate is two weeks, probably done. that's what i was trying to get a feel for, without my own experience under my belt...
(usually i'm trying to get ales done in 3 days, why i think this is 'cool', and fun...kinda the opposite! but i have extra time to devote to it

)

shetc

As suggested in Brewing Classic Styles, I brewed a schwarzbier using S-23. I should have waited until later in the year when my basement is at lager fermentation temps. So it fermented at around 66F (Brulosophy approved

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). Just kegged it so I'll let you know how it came out soon (maybe on the Warm Fermented Lager thread).

bracconiere

so hopefully if that yeast cake on the driveway was any indication, it was a healthy ferment? lol


edit: speaking of that you just gave me an idea....if i'm already at 51f with s-23, should i throw my pressure lid on and ferment at 5psi too?

Protos

I would move it to 12C/54F or 14C/57F as soon as possible and leave there for 3 weeks, because the batch has had a littile too cold of a start, who knows how the yeasties feel themselves because of that.
Interwebz are full of complaints of S-23 crapping out at 10C/51F, so successfull fermentation with this yeast at low temperature isn't guaranteed.
It's not a classic Bavarian cold-loving yeast, S-23 doesn't like to be fermented too cold.

Protos

Please report how the fermentation proceeds, it's very interesting to learn if various versions of this strain differ from each other.
Besides Fermentis S-23, this strain is also sold in dry form as VLB RH by Gozdawa. I've got a packet of it but haven't brewed with it yet. What I read from Polish and German brewing forums, it differs significantly from my experience with S-23. VLB RH seems to give slightly different flavour profile (no less estery than S-23, however) and to be even more fussy about the ferm temp choise.

bracconiere

hmm...well, you convinced to check the gravity, i brewed 10-12-22, pitched on the 13th....it had a OG of 1.060, the gravity is .......1.060 right now....so the temp is going up to 55f...thanks for the feedback guys! i probably would have been dissapointed even after the 4 weeks! lol
edit: and yeah i used a refractometer for it, and actually hoped somehow punching the OG and BRIX into a calc would tell it fermented somewhat!  

brewpharm-Hill

2 packs of lager yeast for 10 gallons of 1.060 wort sounds like a large underpitch to me. I would expect a slow start at such a low temp and a longer fermentation. Possibly increased esters as well.
I brewed 10 gallons of helles once with s-23 and it came out a little too estery for me. Although I think I may have underpitched. I was less than impressed with s-23, but I want to like it! Brewing Classic Styles recommends it for a lot of lager styles. I suppose it just required a little more love than 34/70 which is fool proof IMO.

bracconiere

about the way i feel also.


yeah, me too. but it was what i had on hand.

passedpawn

My experience:
Lager Yeast Experiment: S-23 vs. Wyeast 2124Setup I brewed a 10g batch of German Pils. Malt: Pilsner Hops: Magnum @ 60 min. Saaz @ 15 and 1 min. I split the batch between 2 better bottles. Yeast was pitched at 70F, then both were set into my chest freezer where they reached 50F in about 5 hours. One...

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