silicone and use on stills

Justmejohn44

Ok I'm guessing this is a safe place to post about this. I have just been really confused about the whole silicone vs teflon debate and why everyone is leaning more towards teflon. I personally think silicone is safer from a pfas perspective. But you get shut down just bring it up on here. I really just trying to learn. Teflon is and has been known for pfas or forever chemical leaching. Silicone has not and doesn't contain pfas.
Here is an article from one of the allowed site not listed in the rules.
https://stilldragon.com/blog/what-gaske ... istilling/
Please if you want to argue please have facts to back them.
I'm not trying to start a fight page but one to learn.

Hügelwilli

In this blog they write about soaking silicone in alcohol. Ist this really what we do?
What about steam? What about foreshots? What about tails?
From stilldragon I had expected a better approach to this topic.
The good properties of silicone is its flexibility and I think if you eat it it is less harmful than other plastics. But the chemical resistances of silicones are poor.

Dancing4dan

Distilling produces more than just heat and ethanol. Many of the byproducts of distillation are very reactive with silicone. Do some studying / searching for byproducts of ethanol distillation. If distillation only involved water heat and ethanol silicone would possibly be suitable. That just isn’t the case. The views expressed by StillDragon take a very narrow view of what gaskets are exposed to. Likely in an effort to lull consumers into buying their silicone gaskets.
Once you understand the byproducts produced you will understand the aversion to silicone.
See one example of chemical resistance chart attached.Attachments

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Chemical resistance chart.pdf(1017.44 KiB) Downloaded 20 times"What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
Yellow Label... I put that sh#t on everything!

bcook608

Wow, that was extremely informative!
It makes it fairly simple to see why PTFE is the default choice. Better safe than sorry.- New users start here
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NormandieStill

It's not complicated. Teflon is inert to pretty much all chemicals. There are even certain acids that have to be stored in Teflon breakers because they dissolve glass.
Most other plastics will dissolve or otherwise breakdown in the presence of hot solvents including a whole bunch of the ones that you find in the fores and heads.
All of which you could have found by searching the forum. And now you've learned."I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers

Steve-Broady

I found this, looking through the material safety forum here:
viewtopic.php?t=9480Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

Sporacle

It's pretty simple, wether you agree with the rules or not. The rules are the rules, there are plenty of things in society that I don't agree with but I accept them because that's the way it is.
Pretty much you are trying to start a fight, plenty of people have been down this path before and they end up in the same place with the thread locked

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Edit that's a great chart Dan

" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

bcook608

It's pretty simple, wether you agree with the rules or not. The rules are the rules, there are plenty of things in society that I don't agree with but I accept them because that's the way it is.
Pretty much you are trying to start a fight, plenty of people have been down this path before and they end up in the same place with the thread locked


Edit that's a great chart Dan

While I agree with your statement that the rules should be obeyed and respected, this seems to be exactly how the conversation about PTFE started.
THAT being said, I don't think conversations like this should be brought up unless there are accompanying scientific articles or studies that can be shared. Not just posts made by a company looking to profit off of selling that material.- New users start here
- A message to new users
- Planning your first run
- My Rigs

Hügelwilli

https://bibliothek.hobbybrennen.ch/file ... 281%29.pdf
A pdf in German language about chemical resistance of plastics.
At the last page you can read that silicone has problems with water at 100°C and massive problems with steam at 130°C. Also you can see the problems it has with foreshot and tails compounds. EPDM is better according to this pdf. But PTFE seems to be the only plastic what can handle any compounds at any of our temperatures.
What doesn't mean that you get sick when consuming from a silicone gasket still. I personally think it's not so bad all in all. Silicone is not very poisonous and I haven't found any information that silicone gets degraded suddenly very poisonous.

Justmejohn44

It's pretty simple, wether you agree with the rules or not. The rules are the rules, there are plenty of things in society that I don't agree with but I accept them because that's the way it is.
Pretty much you are trying to start a fight, plenty of people have been down this path before and they end up in the same place with the thread locked


Edit that's a great chart Dan

While I agree with your statement that the rules should be obeyed and respected, this seems to be exactly how the conversation about PTFE started.
THAT being said, I don't think conversations like this should be brought up unless there are accompanying scientific articles or studies that can be shared. Not just posts made by a company looking to profit off of selling that material.I was hoping someone could share some articles or studies to show the info on pfas of each if possible. I'm trying to learn but again I'm getting threatened. I'm not trying to fight just see some real evidence to teflon with it's known pfas's and silicone with no known pfas's. I truly appreciate the opinions of both sides and the information they provided. Thank y'all for the info you have provided, but this will be the last thing I'll post. Enjoy y'all forum but I'm no fool. I'll continue to question everything and do research. I was hoping this forum would be helpful with that but repeatedly proving itself otherwise.

Steve-Broady

I think it is worth pointing out two things:
1. This conversation has been had, answers given, etc., long before you or I got here. It took me almost no time to find the link I posted above, or any number of discussions about PTFE, Silicone, Aluminum, etc. I fully respect when people here say ad nauseum "use the search button." The horse is dead. Unless you've got some new information to revive it with, just stop beating it.
2. There is a big difference between what MIGHT be safe and what is KNOWN to be safe. Our hobby is, for most of us, illegal and perceived to be dangerous, both the process and the product. If we are ever to break through that stigma and hopefully achieve legal permission, we have to police ourselves and prove to the world that this hobby can be enjoyed safely. I want any law maker to be able to point to me and say "Look at this guy. He's been absolutely scrupulous about safety for as long as he's been in the hobby, and his products are at least as good and pure and safe as, if not better than, any commercial product we've tested."
I'm all for asking questions. I've just posted a material safety question of my own, and I sincerely hope I don't offend anyone by it. If I'm wrong, I know I'll be called out for it. But in this case, I feel that the question is one which could have easily been answered with a search. The rules are the rules because they've been tested and proven to the best of our abilities and they're the best means we have of keeping ourselves and each other safe. They are not arbitrary, nor are they optional.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

bcook608

It's pretty simple, wether you agree with the rules or not. The rules are the rules, there are plenty of things in society that I don't agree with but I accept them because that's the way it is.
Pretty much you are trying to start a fight, plenty of people have been down this path before and they end up in the same place with the thread locked


Edit that's a great chart Dan

While I agree with your statement that the rules should be obeyed and respected, this seems to be exactly how the conversation about PTFE started.
THAT being said, I don't think conversations like this should be brought up unless there are accompanying scientific articles or studies that can be shared. Not just posts made by a company looking to profit off of selling that material.I was hoping someone could share some articles or studies to show the info on pfas of each if possible. I'm trying to learn but again I'm getting threatened. I'm not trying to fight just see some real evidence to teflon with it's known pfas's and silicone with no known pfas's. I truly appreciate the opinions of both sides and the information they provided. Thank y'all for the info you have provided, but this will be the last thing I'll post. Enjoy y'all forum but I'm no fool. I'll continue to question everything and do research. I was hoping this forum would be helpful with that but repeatedly proving itself otherwise.There has been plenty of information shared as to why we choose PTFE over pretty much every other option.
You are not being threatened. Sporacle simply stated that there is likely no future to this conversation once the mods catch wind of it.
There has been evidence provided on several threads that shows the potential hazards of using silicone. I'm sure they will be linked here if this thread is allowed to live.
posted same time as Steve- New users start here
- A message to new users
- Planning your first run
- My Rigs

Dancing4dan

Then you should have asked. Otherwise it just looks like a fight. The first thing people deny wanting is often exactly what they want."What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
Yellow Label... I put that sh#t on everything!

bcook608

+1000
This is about the best way it can be put.  

- New users start here
- A message to new users
- Planning your first run
- My Rigs

Sporacle

All I'm saying is that every bit of information on this subject is available if you choose to use the search forum, this subject has been done over and over again. I am happy to accept that to participate in this great forum requires me to respect the rules that are set in place by people that have dedicated thousands of hours to make this incredible resource work.
There is no threat, just a simple statement of facts about the thread and the probable outcome.
This topic is rehashed about every 4 months." you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

squigglefunk

get ready to learn what hive mind looks like

jonnys_spirit

Mods should please respectfully lock this thread. It's not worth the time and the rules are clearly stated.
Feelings aren't facts.
If there are new and compelling facts it might be a worthwhile discussion.
HD supports the legalization of home distilling around the world and safety is a very important element.
Cheers!
-j————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

Hügelwilli

Yes, but it looks more and more that PTFE also has downsides. Perhaps in ten years we all use silicone, although it's not resistant and degrades, but is harmless compared to PTFE.
This is not my opinion. But I think it is possible that this is the future.

shadylane

The problem with silicon is there's too many versions of it.
Folks would get the idea that silicon caulking is Ok to use.   

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PTFE has the problem of being too hard. It isn't pliable enough to make a good seal.
Silcon on the other hand does great job at sealing. But can't handle being exposed to what's in foreshots.
I figure the most practical way, is to wrap a silicon Tri Clamp Gasket with PTFE tape.

NZChris

Over thirty years ago, I asked my industrial gasket supplier to find out what materials he had that were suitable for sealing my still, expecting that silicone would be on the list.  He did the research for me, then only offered PTFE.  That was all I needed to know, so that is what I used.
If you need some flexibility, there are EPDM gaskets with a PTFE envelope available now.

Stonecutter

#9 Safety first and foremost!….  There simply are too many types of plastics and a lack of reliable information for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. #
Honestly I’m surprised this thread has lasted this long.
Goodbye JustmeJohn44. Remember, no one can tell you what to do in your own shed. Just don’t bring it here. Good luck to you.Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

Yummyrum

I was hoping some info on PFAs would have surfaced .
That was what this topic was started about .My recommended goto . https://web.archive.org/web/20171228074 ... ory/theory
Some of it is outdated but most of the basics are correct .

shadylane

I'm lost what is PFA  

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Stonecutter

Here’s my due diligence on a topic I couldn’t care less about. What amazes me is that members are more than willing to take every bit of information from the site in creating a “good drop” but the minute you explain that this site doesn’t allow for silicon collecting tubes etc. the water works come on.  

ax0vsconlby.gif

https://www.differencebetween.com/diffe ... nd-vs-pfa/Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas Paine

Dancing4dan

Maybe the “No Plastics” rule needs links to information that show the reasons for the rule. Answer questions before they get asked?
I don’t know anyone who likes being told “because that’s the rule”."What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
Yellow Label... I put that sh#t on everything!

Uncle-Jesse

Watch the documentary "The Devil We Know" and then decide if you want to use teflon with vaporized solvent.If only the best birds sang, the woods would be silent.

Sporacle

I 100% agree with you Dan, my point was that I'm not a chemist nor am I a mod and the rules of the forum are just that and in order to participate you need to work within those set constraints.
I look at it like a speed limit on a freeway, it is what it is

Last edited by Sporacle on Fri Oct 14, 2022 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total." you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

cob

WOW.  here are the cliff notes and a link. https://www.organicconsumers.org/blog/d ... rld-teflonbe water my friend

Stonecutter

WOW.  here are the cliff notes and a link. https://www.organicconsumers.org/blog/d ... rld-teflonLooks like plastics are terrible for you. We attempt to lay the beast down again. Maybe it’ll stay down this time. Don’t use em’ don’t talk about em folks. Shows over. Go back home.
Freedom had been hunted round the globe; reason was considered as rebellion; and the slavery of fear had made men afraid to think. But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
-Thomas PaineSafety first and foremost! These forums take a very strong negative view on the use of plastics and synthetics in distilling. It simply is not safe to use these during any part of the distillation process with the exception of HPDE buckets which are acceptable for fermentation. There simply are too many types of plastics and a lack of reliable information for us to reliably advocate their use anywhere in the distillation apparatus. Also, from past posting history, this topic seems to quickly boil down into an almost religious flame war. Thus we simply will not put up with it, and posts about any form of plastic use will be edited, deleted or locked. #
The House Rules are above, I don't know what can be done to make them any clearer.
Anyone who doesn't like the rules should probably move along.