What fermentation option to buy as a beginner

loki9421

Hello all

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Apologies if this question has been posted before, I had a short look around but couldn't see anything that answered this specifically.
I'm embarking on the journey to start making my own rums and gins, maybe whiskeys. I've saved a little money and I've started looking at some equipment. While I think I have a good idea of the still I want I'm a bit lost on what fermentation pot to start with. I've seen a few that look like they would do the trick but the relevant customer services say these items can't or shouldn't be used for spirits. I was hoping to get some advice from you all as to what you use for fermentation.
Ideally, I'd like a temperature-controlled vessel so I can maintain consistency.
Here's a selection of some that I thought might work, however, please let me know if these are not the correct items to be starting with.
https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-Applia ... evEALw_wcB
https://www.klarstein.co.uk/Home-Applia ... Steel.html
https://www.klarstein.co.uk/?cl=details ... 01365023a5
https://www.vevor.co.uk/wine-barrel-c_1 ... 7NEALw_wcB

I'm not entirely sure what benefit the cone shape provides other than collecting some residue, perhaps someone can enlighten me?  Does it have any benefit and if so in what way?
I'm looking forward to hearing what you all have to offer, I appreciate your time reading this.
Thanks!
Dave

BlueSasquatch

For Fermentation, which would be after you cook your mash - You let sit for 1-2 weeks with some yeast to conver the sugary mess into alcohol, it will be a low% of say 5-10% alcohol, so you're safe to use HDPE plastics. The larger you go, the more expensive it gets and the more people lean towards safe plastics.
For 6 gallons and less, glass carboys work fair, or other glass containers. I used (9) 5-gallon safe plastic buckets, I now use (2) 10 gallon safe plastic barrels and will soon be using (3) 15 gallon stainless steel kegs. I've heard of plenty who use safe plastic 55 gallon barrels as well.
If you are a beginner, I would recommend going with a safe plastic bucket or barrel, and save your money until you fall in-love with the hobby. Also there are better distilling related things to spend your money on, rather than the front-end Mash/fermenting (Not to cheapen those, but again, safe plastics are fine)

Temperature control is nice, but not as crucial as perhaps homebrewing. Take your fermentation vessel and put it in your house, in an internal closest if you can, should be able to maintain that 75-90 temp range, year round.
Or if you're dead set on it, build a fermentation chamber, google it, I'm working on one right now, its basically a fridge/deep freeze that you use a controller with, to hit a specific temp range, and then you put your fermentation vessels (buckets) into it."In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier

Steve-Broady

I started with 1 gallon glass carboys, then quickly moved up to a 3 gallon conical, and then just as quickly moved up to 5 and 6 gallon buckets, and I haven’t looked back. If I were starting over, I’d get the largest coolers that I could afford and store. I haven’t worried too much about temperature control yet, aside from building a small control box with temperature probes to power immersion heaters. I’m sure that at some point, I’ll start worrying about temperature control, but for now I’m still working on getting enough skill in other areas to make it matter.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

Chauncey

How big of a still are you looking at?
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning,  I sleep till noon.

Ben

Buckets/plastic barrels work good at the ferment stage, carboys are kind of a pain: heavy, sort of dangerous and expensive. They are good for storing distillate if you are trying to collect enough to fill a barrel, or storing while your barrel is full. Conical fermenters are nice, but more of an investment and really not necessary. Like BlueSasquatch said, there are other places to spend the money, and having a ton of fermenter space, especially early on is nice.
Skip temp control for now, just select a yeast that works in your environment. I am not sure where you are located, but this time of year an ale yeast such as s04 or us05 will probably work pretty well. Or just use DADY or Fleishmans bakers yeast, they work best at higher temps but will still function in the high 60s.

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Your ferment will kick up 3-5°F during initial ferment, so select something that works good just a little higher than your room temp. Most flavor contribution from the yeast happens in the first couple days so you don't need a crystal ball.
Spend your budget on fermentables and get stilling. If there are leftovers after your still is setup and working good spend it on aging equipment or mashing equipment. Temp control is sort of the lowest thing on the priority list in distilling, there is almost always a yeast suitable for your climate.:)

loki9421

Ok, great advice, thank you for your time!  I think perhaps a safe plastic container will be good to start with.

loki9421

It's interesting that the replies here are mentioning temp control as least important, this is an eye opener and certainly going to save some cash.  I'm in the UK and in a rather old (and cold) house hence I thought temp control should be a priority. Perhaps I should try without and see how I get on

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loki9421

I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.

loki9421

Fantastic, thank you.  Your post and chart are very helpful.  Really glad I posted here before dumping a few hundred £'s on temp control  

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Chauncey

I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.I'm not a fan of the t500. But if you're set on that go with something in the 18 to 20 gallon range so you can ferment enough for 3 stripping runs. If putting all your eggs in one large basket is daunting, try just a couple hdpe bucket fermenters and fit the lids for airlocks unless you purchase them that way.
Something like this
https://labelpeelers.com/equipment/ferm ... peEALw_wcB
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning,  I sleep till noon.

jonnys_spirit

I use brute trash cans - 20gallon, 32gallon, and large thick blue HDPE barrels 50(55?) gallon depending on what i'm fermenting. For temp control I use a cheap "ICT-308 WIFI" controller with four standard heating pads wrapped between fermenter insulation/reflectix and the barrel/fermenter...

The 50g HDPE barrel is great for a full mash (or multiples in a series) to do three strips with the 16g boiler. The 20 and 32g brutes are better for smaller batches with limited materials or experiments.
The Brute cans may(and do but not always) sometimes leak if filled with boiling hot corn mash - so you might get lucky on a few mashes with htose but recommend something more robust for boiling hot corn mash like the large blue 50g HDPE barrels.
Cheers!
-j————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

loki9421

I was looking at this https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/spiritwor ... t500-3839/, I believe it's 25ltrs.I'm not a fan of the t500. But if you're set on that go with something in the 18 to 20 gallon range so you can ferment enough for 3 stripping runs. If putting all your eggs in one large basket is daunting, try just a couple hdpe bucket fermenters and fit the lids for airlocks unless you purchase them that way.
Something like this
https://labelpeelers.com/equipment/ferm ... peEALw_wcBOh right, what would you recommend in place of the t500?  I'm fully open to suggestions on what type of still to buy, if you know of better ones out there I'll happily take a look, I'm not set on anything particular right now, very much in the 'information gathering stage right now.
Thanks for the link btw!

loki9421

Thank you!  This is certainly a much cheaper option!

Soft-batch

I've had two Brute's develop a leak in almost the same place - moved on to the HDPE pickle barrel.

Bradster68

I started with 5 and 6 gallon pails and carboy. Still using em but have purchased some 30 gallon that I hope to jump up to very soon.

elbono

I started with 5 gallon buckets, food safe ones are cheap at either of the big box hardware stores in my area. You can get tops that seal if you want to use fermentation locks. I quickly found that friends in the food service industry are more than happy to trade a few empty pickle/sauce buckets for a pint of "paint stripper".
When I wanted to up my volume I started using plastic trash cans, if you put a   liner in them clean up is a matter of throwing the liner in the trash. I can get a piece of tubing sealed in with electrical tape but more recently I've just been covering the can without "sealing" the bag. A 30 gallon liner actually fits best in a 22 gallon can.A wise man never makes a mistake. He has many learning experiences.

Twisted-Brick

A couple items to consider:
Plastic fermenters, while inexpensive need to be cared for to avoid scratching, which can harbor bacteria. Stainless fermenters are more sturdy/sanitary and can be handled more roughly.  Also, plastic tends to act as an insulator, which can be a good or a bad thing for managing ferments depending on your ambient temps.  Brutes are initially cost-effective, but from some members' reports, need replacing before something catastrophic occurs.
It's a good idea to read up on projected yields from various ferments, then expected yields from strip runs, and finally expected yields from spirit runs.  How much you want on hand to age/drink will ultimately determine how much you'll want to ferment.“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”
- W.C. Fields
My EZ Solder Shotgun
My Steam Rig and Manometer

Dougmatt

Some thoughts for your consideration:
For your size still and the fact that you don’t seem price sensitive, I would recommend starting with standard wine fermentation buckets (7.9 G / 30 L) with lid, airlocks and seals.  They are cheap really even though there are lower cost alternatives.  I would not get one that is tapped as they always seem to leak.  You can order them from Amazon in US and I expect the uk but every home brew store sells them if nearby you. Like others, I have a bunch of these and some bigger options, but I seem to use these due to my still sIze which is similar to what you anre thinking right now and more on that in a second.
Next question is: are you only distilling or might you want to make wine or beer too?   Reason is there are usually “starter kits” that include carboys, racking canes, etc that are packaged at an item discount. If you aren’t doing beer and wine too then some of that stuff (like bottling equipment is useless in stilling). It’s worth considering imo especially if you can wait until the holidays when those kits really go on sale.  
I would not recommend starting with a bigger fermenter. Reasons: the buckets, assuming you are in average shape, can be easily moved around full, the big ones not very easily

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.  Next a large hot AG ferment depending on how you do it, may have to be done in batches anyway (how much water can you boil at one time?).   I find the small buckets the perfect size for that.  Finally I have a 5 gallon still (similar boiler size) which means you can only fill it to 3.5-4 gallons leaving head room so 2 buckets of ferment is 3 strip runs which equals a spirit batch for me.
A final note on carboys.  Plastic is good for wash / mash ferments and clearing.  You can’t put high abv in them.  I like a mix of larger plastic ones (3, 5 and 6 gallon) and 1 gallon glass as a carbon mix.  The plastic is lighter to handle and mostly bounces if you drop it. I’ve had bigger glass break and it’s scary when that happens.  You do have to be conscious about cleaning with plastic as someone mentioned before but all it took for me was one glass carboy shattering.  I was lucky and wasn’t injured but it was a wake up for me. I have 6 big glass ones that sit in a lonely corner these days

squigglefunk

I agree with all of this, and for me, a 55 gallon fermenter is the way to go, just seems like very little extra work compared to smaller ferments and I get enough to make a decent run.
I use a food safe plastic barrel that was used to transport kosher glycerin and yes they scratch very easily. But a bit tougher than the brute trashcan route for sure!
I am on the lookout for a stainless steel barrel  

ThomasBrewer

IMO, temperature control is the the #1 thing. Stressed yeast produce compounds that will come over with your distillate and make for a sub-par drink. I use aquarium heaters set a little above my fermentation temperature, and then use an Inkbird seedling heat mat controller with submersible probe to do the fine control exactly where I want it. Should either of the thermostats fail (aquarium bimetallic or the Inkbird digital), the other should keep things from burning.
Besides using old pickle Buckets, where the pickling spices might tain your wash, accepatble fermentation vessels are easy to source. I prefer to ferment in a 44qt Bayou Classics stockpot since it's super easy to clean. 8gal wine making buckets, food grade Brute totes, modified kegs, etc. all work great.

BlueSasquatch

Gonna bust your balls here a bit, you ever been to a commercial distillery?

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"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier

contrahead

+1
"WINTER IS COMMING" - so the 'Stark family' says.
(But I already am wearing more clothes and shutting some open windows these days).

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- pulled the wire and control out of old, but working electrical blanket.  About 100' or more of looped insulated wire.  
- stitched wire to inside of 2nd hand neoprene Yoga mat
- Velcro straps hold mat closely to lidded 6 gallon fermentation bucket.   
- left about 6' cord extension slack to outlet
- cost - $0.00
On lowest control setting, a full wash is kept at a happy 78 deg, inside a cold room.
{5g glass wine carboys are about $79.00 these days, if you can find one.  My only carboy is full of fresh, recently racked, homemade Merlot wine at the moment.  It won't need to be heated and it is not going anywhere for a quite a while}.Omnia mea mecum porto

elbono

This was my main worry when I got some for free. The smell may have diminished a bit but it's still there if I stick my head in the bucket. I've never detected it in the mash/wash though and definitely not after distillation. When my pallette gets more sophisticated it might show up.
I'm a brute fan at this point, since I use liners they're only secondary containment if I puncture a liner. I do 40 liter ferments to match my 50 liter boiler.
My biggest advice for a beginner is go cheap until you figure out some things. 5 gallon buckets were great when I had a 5 gallon boiler, I moved to a 15 gallon boiler and now they're just in the way. Glad I didn't spend money for ferment vessels when I thought 5 gallons was the target!A wise man never makes a mistake. He has many learning experiences.

Deplorable

I guess I'll chime in here.
I'm also using HDPE plastic to ferment. I use 110L screw top plastic barrels that contained powdered milk in their previous life.
a full fermenter on grain nets me between 1.25 and 1.5 gallons of keep after cuts. Three full fermenters and recycling feints into subsequent runs yields enough to fill a 5-gallon barrel.
Things to consider, start with how much are you going to consume.
From there, you can determine how to build out your kit.
For me, I have time to cook a mash and get a ferment started in a weekend.
When it finishes, I sanitize buckets, rack the clear off the grain, squeeze the grain bed, and clean the fermenter. That takes a few hours on a Saturday.
Once its cleared, I do two stripping runs of 35 to 40L from the cleared beer and let the custard settle for a week or so and rack off any beer I can salvage off the custard for the spirt run. That also takes the better part of a Saturday with cleaning the still.
When I get around to it, I do a sprit run of between 20 and 27L on a Saturday and choose my jars the following morning. Toss the feints into a collection vessel depending on the project, run the jars through the dish washer, char some oak for the jugs and Im done.
Many here like to ferment 3 times the volume of their boiler. For me, double the volume works for my schedule and gets me a satisfactory amount of finished product.
The point is, build your process around what you expect to achieve in the time you have to commit to the craft. Don't rush any part of the process. Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.
Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.

loki9421

Wow, thanks everyone for your answers.  It seems the majority are going with non-temperature-controlled vessels.  With this in mind, I'll likely opt for simplicity over the temperature-controlled system for now until I gain more understanding of the process.  
Others have mentioned yeast yields and operating temperature ranges, I think I need to do some research on this subject along with some trial and inevitable errors!
Thanks again everyone for your input, I've got a clearer direction now on where to start, fingers crossed I'll have a batch or two ready for Christmas  

Deplorable

There is a lot you can do to control temperature on the cheap.
You can select a yeast strain that works in the ambient temperature you're dealing with.
You can insulate your fermenter in blankets, reflectix, or sleeping bags, and monitor the temperature with a digital thermo probe.
You can add a heating pad under the vessel and control it with an inkBird controller.
Fans can help cool a ferment to some degree, but I feel like it's easier, and less costly to raise the temp, than it is to lower it.Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.
Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.

loki9421

I'm looking at perhaps using these 35ltr buckets with an aquarium heater to regulate temperature.  I'm considering the stick on type thermometer but I'm not sure how they'll perform on plastic.  
I've seen the digital type like these  but again I'm unsure how I would use this with the buckets I've chosen as these appear to be sealed thus preventing the sensor access to the liquid inside.
How do you guys monitor the temperature?  Is it simply a case of opening up the bucket every day or so to take a reading or do you have a constant monitoring system in place?
Buckets
https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/30-litre- ... ck-and-tap
Digital Thermometer
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255000521653 ... 1&mkcid=28
Stick on thermometer

Deplorable

I use one of these to monitor the temperature inside the ferment. I have a wad of copper 12G wire wrapped around the wire just above the temperature probe to act as a weight that keeps it submerged in the mash. I plug a heating pad that the fermenter is sitting on into the controller and set the temperature to the desired range. I wrap the barrel in reflectix and a couple wool blankets as needed to maintain a constant temperature.
Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.
Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.

NormandieStill

Depending on the level of insulation (or heating / cooling power applied) of your house, and cohabitants who don't object to a few buckets in a corner the simplest solution is to choose a yeast that's happy at the ambient temp of your house and ferment indoors.
Or you can build a powered temperature controlled fermenting chamber from the offset but that's a certain commitment to the project."I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice DistillersDepending on the level of insulation (or heating / cooling power applied) of your house, and cohabitants who don't object to a few buckets in a corner the simplest solution is to choose a yeast that's happy at the ambient temp of your house and ferment indoors.
Or you can build a powered temperature controlled fermenting chamber from the offset but that's a certain commitment to the project.Yeah, now way in hell SWMBO was going to let me ferment 30 gallons in the house. Not after the carboy incident over 20 years ago that led to repainting the ceiling and replacing the carpet in the dining room.  

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Fermenting anything in the house larger than a gallon is verboten.Use all your senses, and its not that hard. You just have to pay attention.
Procrastinate, you'll make better whiskey.

Dougmatt

With that small of a fermenter, I might just just grab a brew belt, strap it to the outside and forget about monitoring internal temp. The aquarium heaters are much more finicky to me and I feel like they are overkill for 10G.

ThomasBrewer

Absolutely. I have a great relationship with the local operation and every time the wife and I go on vacation, I try to schedule a visit to whatever local distillery has a tap room. I'm that a**hole that drums up a conversation with the operators.  


What I've found is that the small guys usually condition the space where the fermenters are placed with the idea that they'll have customers adjacent and need to have a "comfortable" zone for people while also maintaining an separate zone for the yeasties. That involves glycol jacket loops with heating and cooling.
The big guys are no different, but they dont care about the ambient air temp. We toured Jim Beam in Clermont back in 2013. The amount of industrial process control there is a PLC programmers wet dream.

BlueSasquatch

Vacation is a great time to visit the micro distilleries, always a good move. I think when you have the cash and repeatability is everything, then of course temperature control is a great step, removing variables is key for consistency. But at the hobby level, it's closer to the bottom rung than the top, in terms of importance. Also seems like anymore micro distilleries are following more micro-brewery foot steps sometimes.
I used the same argument with a home-brewer friend who insisted that I need to ferment with an airlock, rather than raw dogging it in the open. But many of the commercial distilleries are just open top vats. The rooms are temperature controlled very loosely, far from a sanitary controlled room."In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier

squigglefunk

yup I cover my fermenter with a towel just to keep most of the dust and bugs out.

jonnys_spirit

Opening the top to the air is a good way to allow excess heat to escape if it's building up too much (it usually does in my case). A couple packing blankets on top (in addition to the reflectix wrap) are also great insulation to keep heat in for corn-gelatinizing stage and mashing in the malts/enzymes - The large batch stays up to temp for a good day in that case.
Cheers!
-j————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

BlueSasquatch

I cover mine with some geo-fabric, with 3 kids, 3 cats, 4 dogs running amock, the air is not safe. But I'm slowly progressing a fermentation chamber, to hold 3 full kegs of mash. In which they will sit "open" but the overall chamber will of course be sealed."In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier

buchrob

Save your money for more specialized equipment like a parrot, hydrometer, etc. A cheap way to start on a smaller scale:
Plastic buckets (~ 5 gal HDPE) with lids are dirt cheap at big box hardware stores. The advantage is that they are much easier to manipulate than a bigger drum. 2 @ 5 gallons is an easy batch to make up in no time and can be easily handled. Cook on the stovetop in the house, dump into the bucket(s), transfer to your fermentation area to dilute and mix. Keeps the other users of the kitchen happier.
For temperature stability, find a used 5 cu.ft. chest freezer, working or not, to use as a fermentation chamber. Two 5 gallon buckets will fit comfortably and the insulation will help maintain a constant temperature. You can optionally use a heating pad or an immersion heater placed in a separate jar. No airlocks are necessary, but run a small plastic hose from the interior to an outside window to mitigate any odor or pest problem.
Once fermentation is finished, power up the freezer for a day to cold crash and clear.

NZChris

My first fermenter was three times the volume of the boiler.  It ferments anything up to four still charges worth of wash and is still my main fermenter over thirty years later.

Demy

This is my low cost setup, an old (non-working) heating blanket as insulation, a homemade thermostat and a heating bandAttachments

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Demy

The other configuration is a heating plate.Attachments

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Ben

There is also a difference in what is going on in a 14bbl ferment and a half barrel ferment. The heat released from the yeast dissipates a lot faster at hobby scale. Pro scale ferments can experience thermal runaway, causing stalled ferments and spoilage... rarely a problem for the hobby guy.:)

shadylane

You need a heated fermenter.
I typed heated fermenter into the google search located in the upper right hand of the page.  

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Here's what popped up.
app.php/googlesearch?cx=012980085383122 ... itesearch=

squigglefunk

can't we also just use a yeast that is happy at "room temperature" ?

shadylane

can't we also just use a yeast that is happy at "room temperature" ?If "room temperature" happens to be a constant 70'f
The OP is in the UK and "in a rather old (and cold) house"
Without a heater and controller, he'd have to use lager yeast and wait all winter for it to finish.

subbrew

Lots of ways to heat.  I used a 55 gal former pickle barrel for a fermenter ($30 for two on craigs list).  I put it on some wood blocks and put an incandescent light bulb under it (assuming you can still find one of those) .  Hint, put a bit of something non-flammable under it to keep the floor from turning black. I have it controlled by an STC-2000 temp controller ($13 on Amazon, another 10 for a box and plugs).  Just tape the probe to the side of the barrel, cover with insulation and cover the entire thing with a couple of blankets.  
For smaller batches, I put a 5 or 7 gal carboy in a 15 gallon laundry tub with water and use a fish tank heater in the water with the STC-2000 controller to keep a nice temp.  Indirect heat like this means I don't worry about getting too hot locally or the heater breaking. Insulate if needed, like when my fermentation room drops the lower 50s in the winter, the tank heater can't keep up unless insulated.

squigglefunk

uh huh, i gotcha, I think with bigger ferments it's easier to keep it warm naturally, I am doing 45-50 gallon ferments. It does go a little slower sometimes but I am not convinced a little longer ferment is a bad thing.

BlueSasquatch

Wait, you guys don't snuggle your carboys at night to keep them warm?"In the silence of the study one can discuss theories, but only in practice one becomes an artist" - Meunier

NZChris

I have so much insulation around mine that sometimes I have to loosen it off to cool it down.  In summer I have had to use a fan during the early ferment.