Does sugar interfere with mashing

Steve-Broady

I don’t even know how to search for this one. I did try though.
In case you’re not familiar with the safety net concept from Still It, it’s basically a whiskey mash which is supplemented with sugar so that even if you mess up the mashing, you’ll still get something that you can distill and enjoy. So, I’m trying it as part of an ongoing experiment. But I have a question about the best procedure.
I intend to invert the sugar, using backset from an AG of the same recipe. My question is regarding mashing the grain. The most logical thing in my opinion would be to throw the corn in there while boiling the sugar, along with enough water to keep things fluid and some high temp enzymes to get the party started. On the other hand, every reference I can find on here to using sugar and grain together specifically mentions mashing first and then adding the sugar afterwards. I can’t see why the sugar would be a problem for mashing, but can someone who knows far more than me please educate me?Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

bunny

This is just a guess--
After you mash, you can measure  how much sugar you converted and then add additional sugar to get to the point you hoped you would be after the original mash.
BTW, I don't think you'll get any more alcohol by inverting the sugar. I consider this a make work project.

Steve-Broady

The logic behind inverting the sugar is to lessen the sugar bite. It’s about flavor, rather than alcohol, if that makes sense.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

bunny

If it works for you- go for it.

slkycghqyv0.gif

Steve-Broady

I appreciate the advice, as always. And I’m happy to hear different ideas and opinions. I’m basing this on a couple YouTube channels, Still It and Bearded and Bored, both of which have claimed that inverted sugar gives noticeably better results. I confess that I haven’t tested it myself.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

bunny

Recommendations for sugar inversion in basic sugar washes:
Wineo's-------- no
Shady's-------- no
Ted's------------no
Birdwatcher's- no
None of them say not to do it, but none of them say you gotta do it.

Saltbush-Bill

Not many here add sugar to grain unless it's a sugar head like UJSSM.
Inversion seems to be personal choice......a few do......Most don't........no right or wrong there imo.

Dougmatt

Couple of thoughts. On inversion, I’ve done it both ways, can’t say I’ve detected a meaningful difference so I generally don’t do it anymore.  
On adding sugar to an AG, seems like you are defeating the purpose.  Lots of work goes into getting those grains ready and I want that first run to be the best it can be. To that end, I would do the AG, then do a sugar head on the spent grains and run that sugar head with the feints from the AG.  At least then you get a clean AG heart cut from the first ferment without the sugar bite.  I’ve done this a couple of times.  Definitely takes more time, but I think you end up with 2 good products, versus 1 so so product, but I say this without having tried Your way only the 2 batch way which I like.
If you do it, let us know what you think.
D

Steve-Broady

That’s pretty much the purpose, actually. This is part of an experiment I’m doing, purely to satisfy my own curiosity. I’ve seen Jesse making his safety net whiskey, and heard of plenty of people making sugarheads. I wanted to know how the flavors compare between an AG, a safety net, and a sugar head, all using the exact same grain bill. Will a 50/50 grain/sugar recipe come in half way between the AG and the sugarhead? Will it taste like a blend of the two, or will it be different somehow? If one of the other of the sugar recipes has a significantly more pronounced flavor, that would be very interesting given that I’m very carefully using exactly the same ingredients and ratios across the board.
I’m not expecting to make the best quality product with this. I’m just hoping to learn something useful, or at least interesting. I’ve already made and stripped two rounds each of the AG and the sugarhead, so now it’s time for a couple rounds of the blend. I inverted the sugar for the sugarhead, so I’ll do it here as well in order to keep things consistent. I do intend to test the value of inversion at some point, but that’s for another day and another experiment. Today, I’m just looking for advice on whether I can put all that sugar in during mashing, or if I need to wait and add it later.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

bunny

OK, no one else has given you a hint of what to do.
There seems to be some logic that could be applied to what you propose.
I'll talk you through my thoughts and you can decide for yourself.
If you go through your mashing process with your grains you will convert 1)none, 2)some, 3)all,  of the convertible starches from your grains.
I have never done this, but I would guess now you could do an iodine test and an original gravity test.
If your work wasn't wasted, you should have OG numbers suitable for fermenting and distilling without adding any extra sugar.
If you add the sugar at the beginning of the mash process you could end up with an excessively high OG and cause problems during the ferment.
God bless Jesse, but he's telling you if you can't learn to follow directions and make a mash you probably will never learn to play the banjo.

Dougmatt

I personally would add the sugar post mashing.  That way I could control the OG and target the best outcome that won’t stress the yeast.  I haven’t watched the video though…. Can’t really think of a good reason to add it premash other than one heat cycle to do both, but frankly I like to keep OG low so I would probably add the sugar and water targeting a low OG (1.070 ish) and would calculate what was required after seeing what the mash netted.  I’d probably also add a squirt of lemon juice or boil the sugar In backset as you state to ensure an acidic starting ph as well as get the inversion.
Edit:  one other thought occurred to me.  By adding the sugar earlier, you may run a higher bacterial infection / wild yeast run away with longer times to generationally ramp.  Just a thought.Last edited by Dougmatt on Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Steve-Broady

I certainly won’t disagree that learning to mash properly is an important thing if you want to make really good whiskey. I’m getting better at it, still have some work in that department. But with that said, the goal here is merely to satisfy my own curiosity. Probably pointless, definitely not the best way for me to make the best spirit I can, but once I have a question, I want an answer!
Regarding gravity, I’ve used a brewing calculator app to come up with an AG recipe that seems reasonable to me. Didn’t yield as much alcohol I’d hoped, but I believe that is entirely due to my lack of experience. I then used the same app to figure out how much sugar I would need to make the same starting gravity assuming 75% conversion efficiency. 13# of grain, 8.5# of sugar, if you’re curious. So far, so good. Taking into account my ineptitude and assuming something closer to 55-60% efficiency, I got roughly the results I expected. So for the hybrid, I simply took half of each. Exactly half the corn, half the rye, half the malt, and half the sugar. At least in theory, that should yield the same SG as the AG or sugarhead individually.
In other words, I’m not mashing and then supplementing with sugar to hit a target gravity. I’m working with a set recipe for the purpose of keeping the experiment consistent. I’m not worried about the gravity being too high from either the mash or the sugar, because I’ve already done the math to make sure that I’ll be in a safe range, and have tested each half of the recipe already.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

StillerBoy

Good quote..
As to inverting white sugars to "lessen the sugar bite" as you put it, that doesn't apply..  sugar bite is created in the fermentation process..
I've done many batches, side by side, and spirited on their own, and was never able to notice the different in the finished spirit, nor in the fermentation time or behavior..
As to making a sugar head by mixing the sugars with the grains in a mashing process, it will not invert the sugar unless it's boiled..  to invert sugars, it has to be boiled for at least 20 min with some acid..
Provided it's done in the proper mashing process, it will have no different effect in the finishing flavor doing them together or separately..  but if you're to boil them together, then the result will be different..
Mars" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein

Dougmatt

I don’t think it’s pointless.  I’m interested to hear what you think. I have what I “think” will be the result, but as they say “nothing ventured, nothing gained”.   No matter what, you will get alcohol  

3zqap40bclu.gif

Steve-Broady

I have what I think will be the result as well. I’ll go ahead and speculate that the hybrid will taste pretty darn close to a blend of the AG and sugarhead, though I wonder if the grain spending less time in fermentation (1 round instead of 2) might possibly yield less flavor.
And as you said, no matter what, I should have some tasty alcohol!Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

Salt-Must-Flow

I would test inverting a batch and not inverting an identical batch. Ferment both and still both in the same manor and see if you think there are any differences. I've done this, but not enough times to determine for myself if there's any repeatable differences. It appeared that I collected a little bit more when inverting, but not necessarily enough to make it worth while. Both ways appeared to have no difference in my taste tests so I ended up blending them both together. I've always inverted my sugar, but only just started to not invert. Not inverting is way more convenient.

Steve-Broady

Salt,
That test is definitely coming. I’ve heard enough conflicting reports that I want to test it for myself. But for the purpose of this experiment, in order to keep things consistent, I will invert. I already made the sugarhead, and that sugar was inverted, so I’ll do the same here to remove a variable.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

NormandieStill

My first thought when he started his safety net series was that there ought to be a moment when you check the results of your mash to determine the sugat addition. Otherwise you're going to be boosting the abv to unhappy yeast levels.
If you're halving the grain and replacing that with sugar then you're just going to reduce the flavour. If you can already mash successfully then just do that.
I di wonder if a full grain bill but unmashed (So a ujssm style sugarhead on unheated grains) would provide the same level of flavour as a full mash. I suspect that the heat of the mashing process helps get some of the flavour on to the wash."I have a potstill that smears like a fresh plowed coon on the highway" - Jimbo
A little spoon feeding *For New & Novice Distillers

juana_b

I do know that heat does wonders to the foods we eat, in regard to flavor(sorry, flavour).
Ive never used yellow label angel, so I can't comment.
But if I was just winging it, I'd smash that grain and sugar in and see what comes out.
But... if I was someone as serious as you are Steve, I would try and get conversion, test, then add sugar to accomplish the "safety net" you desire.
Whatever method you choose, just go for it and I'll bet you're making AG's by next month. Godspeed.

shadylane

Some where I can remember reading about sugar concentration inhibiting the mashing process.
I think mash the corn, then add any additional sugar that might be needed.

Bushman

Lot of good advice here but the OP talked about doing some testing himself.  I never discourage this unless the practice is unsafe.  For me the best learning experience comes from hands on.
PS:  I am not saying don’t listen to the advice of others but to file and compare for yourself.For New and Novice Distillers
How to Organize and Manage Forum
Posting Photos

squigglefunk

I would just keep them separate, as mentioned above you prob wont be "inverting" the sugar cooking it in with the corn ... will it interfere? I dont know, I would think if your cooking the corn with added sugar it might scorch/burn easier.

Ben

+1
Don't nobody nowhere know nothing if not for the trailblazers."Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."

SDEngr1

The purpose of inverting sugar is to make the yeasts life easier. Your breaking the dissacharides into monosaccharides. The yeast will do this on their own if your environment is good, which it should be if you are using grain for your primary sugar source and keeping your starting gravity in a reasonable realm. The idea is to put less stress on the yeast. I feel like you can skip it.
I would only mess with inverting if you are using it to step feed and get abv into the clouds. Or if you are looking to caramelize it a la Belgian candi sugar.
I also feel like intentionally taking a half measure on attempting all grain is a mistake... Try for the all grain. If you have trouble use sugar as a last resort. Little to lose, lots to gain.:)