First On The Grain Fermentation

Avalir

Hello,
Exciting stuff happening. Finally upgraded my rig from 5 gallons up to 15 gallons; and with that, upgraded from two 6 gallon fermenters to one 55 gallon brute to ferment in, which gave me plenty of room to go on the grain. I'm currently about 36 hours into my ferment and all appears to be going well and putting me at ease.
Of course my biggest concern at this point is how well my mashing process worked. The whole idea with going larger was to cut down on the time I have to put in, so I'm experimenting with how to go about handling such a large volume without spending an entire day standing over the stove boiling corn. I also modified my grain bill slightly to make the amount of grains I use a bit more friendly and easily divisible from a bag of grains - it also raised the quantity of grains a few pounds so even if my experiment with large batch mashing gave a lower yield, it should help compensate some to give me a worthwhile yield I can be happy with.
My grain bill/quantities is as follows:
50lbs (1 bag) of corn [purchased whole, heated in the oven (not enough for me to describe it as toasted but to kill any weevil eggs that may be present for unforeseen long term storage, then manually cracked/milled]
10lbs whole oats [slightly toasted]
5lbs whole wheat [slightly toasted]
15lbs barley malt [7.5lbs pale, 7.5lbs vienna]
I also used additional alpha and beta amylase to help my yield.
My mash tun is only 12 gallons, so I split this into a 48hr process. The first day I took half my corn, oats, and wheat and put it in the tun. Brought 5 gallons of water (tasty tasty well water) to a roaring boil and poured it over the grains, stirring to break up clumps as well as I could and adding high temp alpha amylase to help keep it loose. Then I sealed the tun, wrapped in a blanket, and after a few hours boiled more water to top it off and added more enzymes. The next day I added half the malt and some alpha and beta enzymes. Temp was around 145F at this time. I then moved to my fermenter and watered down a bit to bring the temp down as the fermenter is just LDPE and I don't trust making it overly hot. Then repeated for the other half of the grains.
For the most part, it appeared nearly all the corn gelatinized sufficient except maybe a couple pounds that were in the bottom corners of the tun that didn't get broken up too well when stirring. The half of the mash that sat in the fermenter waiting 24hrs looked like it attracted the attention of some wild yeast (I could see little colonies bursting to life, the smell was slightly sour but non-concerning - if anything, I'm hopeful this becomes a good thing for my flavor). But once I added the other half of mashed grains, I then topped it off with 20 or so gallons of cool water to get my temp down to pitching temperature. I then added several tablespoons of bakers yeast I rehydrated and made a starter with. I didn't bother much with trying to aerate the wort beyond dumping buckets of water in and stirring (mostly because I was too sore and tired already).
I skipped adding any brewers yeast, acid, dap, epsom, or any other additives because I logically know it's not necessary and want to move away from it.
So far it smells like a good healthy ferment (which I can smell all throughout the house, rather than just in the room it's in like it would on a small scale).
Just was excited and wanted to share, but I'll update in a few days with how it progresses. Wish me luck with how sufficient the mashing went and the yield I get."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

shadylane

You probably already know this.
Use your 15-gallon pot to boil mashing water.  

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On a side note.
I'd be leery of using a 55g brute to ferment in.
Brutes have been known to fail and 55 gallons makes a big mess.
Personal experience taught that lesson to me.

Avalir

You probably already know this.
Use your 15-gallon pot to boil mashing water.  


On a side note.
I'd be leery of using a 55g brute to ferment in.
Brutes have been known to fail and 55 gallons makes a big mess.
Personal experience taught that lesson to me.I appreciate the words of wisdom from your experience. Primary reason I wanted to keep the temp low on anything I dropped in the brute (<120F). Somewhere down the line I'll probably try to switch to a couple 30ish gallon hdpe barrels so I can have something less bulky and more heat resistant. Should also be getting a nice 40+ gallon chest cooler to mash in soon (free from the in laws). And the only issue with my 15 gallon boiler for mash water is it doesn't have a drain valve so it's not fun to handle full and hot. But I can clean and use my 10 gallon chicken scolding pot I use for defeathering in the mean time. I figure it'll take me a couple runs to optimize my methods and equipment for these larger batches."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Avalir

I've also had a thought of wrapping the outside or the brute in some heavy duty chicken wire/fencing and some pieces of rebar to help the structural integrity. At least a short term thought. I just get uneasy with the temperatures that can noticeably make the brute softer to the touch."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

shadylane

Some of the brute trash cans are better than others.
The bottom corners are where it's thinnest. I'd recommend picking the best one in the store.
Whatever you do, don't try to move one while it's full.  

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Sorry, didn't mean to side track your first AG post.  

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Sounds like everything is going good with the mashing and fermenting.  

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Avalir

No worries. Not my first AG by the way. Just first on the grain. I used to do off the grain just due to fermenter size limitations. And I have no plans to try to move this sucker full. I baled it over in 5 gallon buckets from the kitchen to my brewing room/office.
Glad you did bring it up though because the brute was definitely a worrisome piece of equipment for me."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Avalir

And also first batch in larger than a 10 gallon capacity. Figured I'd upgrade to be to be able to ferment enough to get to a spirit run with my new 15 gallon still in one go. So lots to learn for optimizing my process and equipment for these changes."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

shadylane

I'd do the corn separately then add the other grains.
Pour the boiling water on the corn and stir until the lumps are out.
When the temp is right, mix in the high temp alpha real good.
Wrap the insulation on and wait.

Avalir

I'd do the corn separately then add the other grains.
Pour the boiling water on the corn and stir until the lumps are out.
When the temp is right, mix in the high temp alpha real good.
Wrap the insulation on and wait.That would probably work a little better given the size tun I currently have. More room for boiling water to extract starches at the very least. Wheat and oats go quick anyways and would give me a chance to step mash them if I so wish."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

shadylane

Don't think of this step as extracting starches.
Think of it as making gravy, then liquefying it with high temp alpha enzymes.  

Avalir

Maybe it's just the way I'm used to doing it in the past that's making me question how successful my new methods will be... would you say for the most part, it doesn't matter how thick the mash is, so long as they're exposed to the proper heat for the proper time and come out visually appearing to have gelatinized?
With my old method of actually boiling on the stovetop, there was of course the concern of scorching that made me have to utilize a higher water:corn ratio."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Avalir

Quick update. About 60hrs into the ferment and I must say it's the best smelling AG ferment I've ever had. The room smells like, well, cereal grains - predominately corn. Normally by this point off the grain I'd start getting a feint sulphur, not horrible like rotten eggs or rancid pastries, but noticeable. No sulphur smell here. Now I can't necessarily accredit that to fermenting on the grain. It could just be that I'd always add brewers yeast, DAP, and epsom salts off the grain, which I omitted for on the grain.
Now I did decide to drop a couple tea infusers with oyster shells in as a pH buffer, though I doubt it would be necessary. But I'm glad to see my ferment still chugging along steadily. The first AG I did when I really botched the mashing process, the fermentation was essentially over within 18hrs, so I must have done a fairly decent job adjusting my methods to process triple the grains without adding extra time or hard labor."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Ben

It's going to be easier, and your success rate will be higher if you thin it down some. Based on your method posted I would add all the water to the corn, stir very thoroughly (doughballs don't convert), add high temp enzyme, insulate and let the temp come down as you are doing. When it hits 152 add the rest of your grain, stir thoroughly again, rest for 10 mins and check the temp. Hopefully adding the grain brings your temp down to 143-147 range, You are shooting for 145, so keep notes. If it needs to be a degree or two higher or lower on the next batch you want to know that. The non-corn grains you listed will gel fine in that temp range, and you will be at the right saccharification temp. Cover it back up and let it sit for an hour. Starch test, cool if complete.
You can save some of your backset from the stripping run to add into your next mash, add it to the water you are boiling for corn. It doesn't take a lot (I use 1 qt/10 lbs grain), the increase in acidity will help your corn conversion.
If you haven't seen this thread on large batch mashing it is worth a read: viewtopic.php?t=65703
Big, cheap picnic coolers make great mash tuns if you are looking to bump up your insulated space on the cheap.:)