LME for dark beers

Pehlman17

It’s been many moons since I’ve brewed with LME. My current setup is sort of an oversized partial mash, but I’ve strictly stuck to DME for all the reasons most folks here suggest. But I’ve been wondering lately about doing an extract with specialty grains sort of recipe lately for old time’s sake. Ideally shooting for a bigger darker beer for winter time.
Do those of you with lots of experience with extract beers find that in darker stronger beers the LME vs DME difference is less significant? Or is it still worth it to spend a bit more on DME?
PS - Is the late-boil addition concept still relevant with darker beers or is that mostly just a color thing?

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Cyclman

Dark malts will not hide old extract, oxidized flavors.

kartracer2

I can't say I have a "lot" of experience but extract is how I brew. In my opinion, age of your LME has more effect than any thing else. Most of the recipe kits I have made use lighter extracts and use specialty grains for color and flavor tuning. I have a porter and a stout on deck and they both use ultra light or golden light extracts for the fermentables. Regardless, freshness is key.
As far as late addition of extract, it's just the way I do things any more. Most boils are 30 minutes +/- with 50% (again +/-) late extract adds. I use BeerSmith2 to keep track of the IBU/SG ratio and in check as designed. If there is a mix of LME & DME in the recipe/kit, I use the DME early as the water warms and the LME late, after heat off.
William's have selection of extracts that are for different styles of beers. I have yet to try any of them,,but some day,,,
Hope this helps.
Cheers,

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Joel B

BrewnWKopperKat

Kits use late additions of extract as the kit assumes common kitchen equipment (for example: a 4 gallon kettle with a stove as the heat source).
For me, with a 30 minute boil of DME, I personally don't see a need for late additions - as the color comes out appropriate to style when I add all the DME up front.

Miraculix

But why not adding it all at flame out? Heat only does damage to the extract and it's actually not necessary to heat it up at all. Also fully dissolving it is not necessary as time does the trick as well. For boiling the hops, the amount of dissolved ibus per amount of alpha acids in the boil is much higher in plain water.
I can think of no beneficial reason for boiling the extract at all.

BrewnWKopperKat

Those who have been closely following the "extract" discussion here, in /r/homebrewing, and in AHA forums are aware of a recent topic that talked about a spoiled batch using LME. Causes of the spoiled batch were identified with the supplier(s). The corrective action(s) to prevent the problem have been well known for a long time.
Brewing Engineering, 2e (2015) has information that could help individual brewers determine when a "no boil" approach is too "short and shoddy". It's currently $4.50 (USD) eBook.

Miraculix

I know, shouldn't be happening with the main suppliers though. But anyway, dumping it in at flame out pasteurises it, so there really is no reason to actually boil the extract.

BrewnWKopperKat

But it occasionally does. And well known proper ingredient storage and usage avoids the problem.
Personally, I haven't found a way to convert 60 min recipes into no boil recipes. I did a "boil hops, not wort" batch many years ago and didn't like the result. Converting from 60 min to 30 min is a "math" problem (adjusting hop amounts). Again, for me, converting from 60 min to 15 min seems to result in some flavors that should have been boiled off. OTOH, I have had success with a number of "single hop" 15 min boils. I also have a couple of "Hop Sampler" batches that are enjoyable.

Miraculix

I'm not using extract myself except for rare occasions, so this boiling off certain flavours thing is new and interesting for me. I thought that extract actually had always been boiled long enough so that it actually is "done". If that's not the case, then of course, boiling to get rid of certain compounds that might be in there would be necessary.
Regarding the hops, you are right there are adjustments that need to be made regarding the amount. There's a significantly higher percentage of alpha acid isomerisation within plain water than it is happening in wort. The proteins in solution limit the isomerisation process somehow, so you get much more ibus from boiling the hops in water, than boiling them in wort. The stronger the wort, the more proteins in solution and the less the isomerisation rate actually gets. This is why base malts like chevallier, which are higher in proteins than for example Marris otter, need more hops to get the same bitterness that a "normal" base malt achieves with a lower amount of hops.
This is stuff most calculators are missing.

BrewnWKopperKat

Here are a couple of possible side experiment that could be done using BBR's Hop Sampler process. Make two batches, one with Briess pilsen DME and one with Muntons extra light DME. In each case, add the DME at 140F, heat the wort to a boil, then add the hops. Observe the wort while it is heating. If one uses the same hop for each batch, one can compare the beers side by side. One could also experiment with CaCl, CaS04, and/or NaCl additions 'in the glass'.

Pehlman17

What's the threshold in terms of "packaged on" dates on cans of LME where you wouldn't be too concerned about using it? < 1 year? I think Briess says 2 years, but I worry that's pushing it.

kylewag

According to John Palmer’s How to Brew, late additions of extract should be done in every partial boil batch due to the flavor impact of the Maillard reaction from high gravity boils.

BrewnWKopperKat

With regard to packaged on dates, the 'follow-on' questions are 1) how was it stored after it left the manufacturer? and 2) how was it shipped?

Pehlman17

I’ve been looking at those William’s Brewing extracts on their website. Some of them sound pretty cool, and different from anything I’ve seen elsewhere. I’d be curious as to how fresh of a batch I could get. Hopefully they have pretty decent product turnover. German pils and Belgian pale extracts sound interesting. Their rye extract sounds interesting as well. I think Briess used to make one, but I haven’t seen it in a while.

BrewnWKopperKat

The anecdotal reports I've read suggests it leaves fresh and arrives in the same condition (although shipping conditions may vary).
Like all other cooking ingredients, store it properly when it arrives.
And with LME, pasteurization is strongly recommended.