Sourvisiae co-pitch final ph

SRJHops

Does anyone have experience co-pitching with Sourvisiae?
I want to make a sour Saison. On its own I read that Sourvisiae will bring the pH down to 3.0 or 3.1, which is a bit too tart for me (I prefer 3.4 or so).
If I co-pitch will Saison yeast, could I expect a little higher pH?

VikeMan

I think the short answer is yes. I haven't used Sourvisiae, but here's a rabbit hole to go down that can probably inform your decision:

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Diving Deep In To Sourvisiae - Sui Generis BrewingA deep dive into Lallemand's Sourvisiae yeast: how it was made, addressing a few myths, and a look at how it behaves in the brewhouse.

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suigenerisbrewing.com

SRJHops

It didn't quite get into the nitty gritty about expected final pH when co-pitching, unless I missed it. I wonder if yeast percentages and cell counts are key?
In a perfect world, I could pitch equal amounts of Sourvisiae and Saison yeast and get a pH around 3.4 - with plenty of Saison character.

VikeMan

He didn't actually measure a co-pitch pH, but he did mention that many people co-pitch along with Sourvisiae to limit sourness. And he also determined that Sourvisiae is a slow grower, which lends credence to the idea that co-pitching might increase pH (by having the clean strain outcompete it to an extent).

SRJHops

I'm emailing with Lallemand right now - they are really responsive to questions. So far I have found that co-pitching will indeed result in higher pH (in the mid 3's), but there is a pitching ratio. Here is the chart they sent. I still can't quite tell what ratio to use? Though it seems like maybe just going with 50-50 would be a good -- and quite easy -- place to start.

AlexKay

Did Lallemand start packaging Sourvisiae for homebrewers, or did you just bite the bullet and buy half a kilo?
Edit: MoreBeer has it in 10 g pouches. That’s awesome! How long has this been the case?

SRJHops

D'oh! I haven't actually used it yet.... I just assumed they sold it in homebrew packets.
Edit: I think they do sell it. Not at my LHBS, but they appear to have it at MoreBeer: Sourvisiae® Ale Yeast (Lallemand) | MoreBeer
I got here because I co-pitched with Philly Sour and it didn't work.... From what I read about Sourvisiae, it would have worked a lot better.
My Philly Sour Saison was neither sour enough nor Saison enough.... So I was hoping to switch to Sourvisiae.
BTW: Lallemand says Belle Saison can ferment in wort with ph in the 3's, but I am a bit skeptical. I used Be-134 AND WY-3711 and neither of those could ferment in the low ph environment. But maybe Belle Saison is some kind of super yeast?

AlexKay

This is, I think, a relatively recent development. I’m about to place my MoreBeer order.
Belle Saison is diastaticus (most saison yeasts are) but even worse, I’ve heard people talking about biofilms and I’ve decided to stay away.

SRJHops

I exchanged a few emails with a Lallemand rep yesterday. Here is what I currently understand about Sourvisiae:
It's a GMO ale yeast, modified to produce lactic acid and alcohol. On its own it produces really sour beer (3.0 pH), so a lot of people blend it with a non-sour beer.
It can be co-pitched with another yeast, and the pH should end up higher, in the mid 3's.
However, it could take some experimentation to get the pitch ratios dialed in. It is hard to predict what pH will result from a 50-50 pitch. It could be that the best pitch for your recipe and pH target could be 60% Sourvisiae and 40% of your other yeast...
Another wild card is how well your second yeast will work as the wort pH drops. Perhaps a healthy pitch and a robust diastatic Saison yeast can handle the low ph, but I'd be worried about how well it really ferments.
Still, I plan to give it a go. Will likely start with a 50-50 pitch unless I can find a better recommendation.

VikeMan

My recommendation would be to, if in doubt, err on the side of caution (i.e. less Sourvisiae, more clean yeast) the first time around. You can always add lactic acid to a finished beer, but you can't really remove it.

SRJHops

Point well taken. For my failed Philly Sour Saison I actually opened the bottles and dropped in 1 ml of lactic in each, which dropped the pH to 3.4 from 3.8. Still not a Saison, but a drinkable sour. I sacrificed a bit of carbonation, though the Saison yeast might keep chewing a bit...

SRJHops

I just received a bit more info from Lallemand. In line with your suggestion, they recommend pitching 70 percent "clean" yeast (such as Belle) and 30 percent Sourvisiae. But it could take some experimentation via a few batches. To your point, I also think you need to be ready with some lactic acid if the final pH is too high.
The reason to favor the clean strain is to ensure it does its work.
Of course, doing a split batch and blending is another viable option. Though if you go that route, it may be worth exploring Philly Sour.
For my first attempt, I think I will pitch two Saison strains and one packet of Sourvisiae.

Brewer-Mike

Anything to report back yet?
I was planning to make my first Saison following a recipe on AHA using Wyeast 3711. I bought all the ingredients. Today I got a sachet of this in a swag bag I got for stewarding a comp. Now I'm wondering about doing a co-pitch.

AlexKay

I have 3 sours fermenting right now: one 60-40 with Abbaye, one 60-40 with Nottingham, and a third 100% Sourvisiae. All are at final gravity or close to it. I’m going to let them sit at least another week, but I’ll report on the pH when I keg them.

SRJHops

I haven't done it yet, but from my research I think you can you can go ahead and co-pitch Sourvisiae and 3711. The 3711 should blunt the ph a little, which is good. Without another yeast, the Sourvisiae may push toward 3.0 ph, which is too sour for most palates. While there is no way to predict your final ph, it should end up in the mid 3's according to the sales rep from Lallemand. It may take a few tries to really dial it in, though.
P.S. FWIW, I might also suggest throwing in some Be-134 for good measure. I have a feeling a 75% (saison yeast) to 25% (sourvisiae) ratio is a good one to try. (Plus Be-134 is awesome.) You can always adjust the final PH down with some lactic acid, but other than blending there's not much you can do if your final ph is too low.

AlexKay

Ok, packaging day for my sours! I have:
Oud Bruin:
OG 1.072/FG 1.025
2.75 g Lallemand Abbaye
2.5 g Sourvisiae
pH 2.86
Hoppy Sour:
OG 1.047/FG 1.015
5 g Sourvisiae
pH 2.92
Pale Sour:
OG 1.053/FG 1.016
2.75 g Lallemand Nottingham
2.5 g Sourvisiae
pH 3.16
The first two were all-malt worts; the third had added dextrose.

SRJHops

Thanks for this excellent data!
For the oud bruin, surprised to see the really low ph. That will be a tart one! I would have thought with the co-pitch it would have been in the low 3s at least...
Why do you think the Nottingham co-pitch finished so much higher? The dextrose seems to have inhibited the Sourvisiae? Interesting...
So where does this leave us? You did 60-40 and still ended up really low (2.8) and pretty low (3.16) pH. Seems like 70-30 would get closer to 3.4 or so, perhaps?

AlexKay

I was kind of thinking that Nottingham is a voracious beast, and just established itself faster and there wasn't as much for the Sourvisiae to do. But Abbaye is pretty aggressive as well, so I can't entirely explain the Oud Bruin. Maybe because the gravity is higher, both yeasts had more to munch on?
All three were delicious, even warm and flat. I'm looking forward to tasting them when they've carved up, and will definitely be trying variations on the recipes again!
As for proportions ... I was more 52/48, really almost equal. A pH of 3.4 means 3 times less acid than pH 2.9, so that would suggest a 3:1 ratio, 75/25 ordinary/Sourvisiae, would be the next thing to try. If it scales, which it probably doesn't.

SRJHops

Excellent. I will try 75-25. My brewing calendar is crowded right now, so not sure when I will get to it, but I will try to report back when I do.

AlexKay

I should correct this. A pH of 3.4 means 1.7 times fewer protons than pH 3.16. If we were looking at pure aqueous solutions of lactic acid (we aren't), then a pH of 3.16 corresponds to a concentration of 0.0042 M, while a pH of 3.4 would be 0.0015 M ... so in fact, you'd want to cut the lactic acid by a factor of 3, not 1.7. With this model, that'd mean you need three times less Sourvisiae than a 52/48 pitch with Nottingham, so more like a 85/15 pitch. That's with Nottingham, so a yeast that was slower to act would need to be present in greater proportions.
But. Regular beer already has a pH of 4.3. This might make you think you needed even less lactic acid to get down to 3.4; however, what's going to be more important is the buffering capacity of the beer, and I have no idea what that is, quantitatively. Buffering would mean you need more lactic acid to get from 4.3 down to 3.4, and compared to that relatively less to get to 2.9. That would argue in favor of more Sourvisiae in the pitch, by an amount that's hard to calculate.
TLDR: If it were me, I'd try 75/25 next.