Marzen - recipe for constructive criticism

kaziel

Hello, I'm putting together Marzen recipe. Bath that I'm goint to made will be 2x12l. One will be fermented with my liquid yeast:

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FM31 Bavarian valley - Fermentum Mobile

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fermentum-mobile.pl, second will be done with SafLager S-23 (I've got harvested like 0.4l from my previous lager).
Fermentation concept with two iSpindels surrounding temp ~13-14C bucket to bucket for two weeks (or longer if needed) 2 days in 18C. Lagering for 3-4 weeks in ~5C.
Water - desitlled with 1.2g Epsom, 1.2 NaCl, 3.6g CaCl - this is from my local forum - can someone comment? In theory this makes kickass german beers.
Mashing 3l/kg of malt with PH adjustment with phosphoric acid down to 5.2. Fly sparge.
Grain bill:
3.5kg Munich malt,
1.5kg Pilsen,
1kg Vienna,
Mashing:
62C for 30'
72C for 30'
78 - 10' mashout
Single bittering hop - Perle 5.5%AA 40g for 50' for 22IBU.
Comments, suggestions welcome.

AlexKay

Looks good!
Some tweaks:
I'd probably use a little more Vienna and a little less Munich. Maybe 2/2/2?You're a little low on sulfate, and I'd probably add 1.2 g of gypsum alongside what you've got. The extra calcium won't hurt anything, too.It's probably (ok, definitely) not authentic, but I like 3-5% Simpsons DRC in a Marzen. You could use a British medium crystal instead. Or you could ignore this.  

Jack-Arandir

Looks good. I think it'll make a fantastic beer.
* To my taste, there can be too much Munich in a Märzen. I tried 80% Munich and 20% Pilsner and it was too much. I liked 45/55 much better. My doppelbock was 60% Munich (Munich 1 plus dark Munich) 40% Pilsner and it was incredible. Again, it's personal preference. I'm not saying to change it. I'm just saying Munich is potent stuff.
* Which maltster will you use? It makes a huge difference. I don't like Weyermann Pilsner at all (tastes grainy to me), but I love Weyermann Bohemian Floor-Malted Pilsner. I've heard great things about Bestmalz but I haven't yet opened the sack I have. For the Vienna, I found Weyermann Barke Vienna is much tastier than the regular Vienna.
* No decoction? The Germans swear by it. If you're bothering with a multistep mash you may consider it.
* I've never used S-23 before, so I have no idea how it turns out. A quick glance at the website says it's best for fruity and hoppy lagers, which I don't think is what you're going for. My personal favorite lager yeast is WY2308 Munich Lager -- it has rich malty backbone, great complexity (better than W34/70), and a crisp finish. That said, tasters couldn't tell the difference between S-23 and W34/70, so it may not matter.
Great recipe, and good luck brewing! I'm especially interested in the comparison between the two yeasts. Let us know how it turns out.

Kickass

I like doing equal parts Munich, Vienna and Pilsen. A little Melanoiden (spelling?) malt is optional if you want to add a little sweetness or emulate a decoction mash. Sometimes I add some, sometimes I don’t.

kaziel

All Bestmalz but also for first time. Till now I was only using local (Viking) malts.
I've just started to do Lagers this year. I've used S23 for Light American Lager - beer was good but my friend noticed "green apple" smell in one bottle. I've also made Dark Czech Lager with those and it was very good without any off flavours.

So Maybe I will stick with 2/2/2 and add 0.5kg Melanoidin Malt (decoction substitute). Need to adjust to fit 15l buckets ~3l of headroom.
I hope I will find some time before xmas to make this batch, having unheated garage and basement and also counting on somehow managing the temps.
Also whirlflock tablet for clarity I'm also thinking about adding pure vitamin C like 1.5g for 30l to prolong shelf life.
Thanks for all answers so far.

Miraculix

Whatever you do, please do not add crystal.
Whenever an American adds crystal to their German beer and still calls it German, a cute puppy in Germany dies.

pvtpublic

Yeah, a light hand on the Munich is wise. If you've had an Ayinger, Paulaner, etc. and have one next to an American version, you'll notice the American usually has too much and sometimes has crystal malt. It's just not right, it needs to be smooth and easy drinking.
A step mash can work just fine. Shred Monk, a brewery in my town, makes a fine example of a German Pils. I swear it's almost straight out of Germany, and that's what they do. Now, it also comes down to what methods you have available. In my case, I can't directly heat my mash tun, so it's either step infusion or decoction (when I choose to do step mash). Well, I only have so much room in my mash tun as well, so it's decoction for me.

Pie11

My preference for marzen grain bill is:
50% munich ii.
25% pils.
25% vienna.
The usage of good quality fresh malt is mandatory.
Weyermann or maltrie du chateau are the best for those beers.
Use 2 step decotion even if you need more 40 miutes, and avoid melano (that has an hint of harshness, it's don't fit very well in marzen)

AlexKay

Not trying to troll, genuinely curious as to the answer.
A quick survey of German maltsters shows they make and sell crystal malt: Weyermann (12 varieties), BestMalz (9), Ireks (7), Avangard (2). Are they really all intended for export only, or are there some types echt-German beers that use them?

Miraculix

They sell it to "craft" beer breweries, home-brewers and export it. There are no German styles that include crystal traditionally.

AlexKay

Altbier, maybe?
I am going to have to check my copy of Kunze when I get home, to see what he says on the topic.
Also, does anyone know this book, "Historic German and Austrian Beers for the Home Brewer" (amazon link) This discussion has made me curious...

Pie11

There is some german beer that use caramel malt: albier uses "biscuit" caramel malt, carahell is done for helles.
Not all german beers are indexed by bjcp.
Personally I don't see any caramel malt in Marzen or other bayern (bavarian) old traditional styles as dunkel or marzen.
Decotion adds some sweetness, a light caramel malt (with also a biscuit/aroma malt) can be used for simulate this process.

Protos

A very well thought out recipe.
Why I think so?
First: the choise of S-23. From the dry yeasts, it's the best option for amber malty styles exactly like this one. No Pilsnery crispness (W34/70 for that) is needed in a Maerzen, neither Bocky strength (S-189 for strong beers as it tackles high alcohol better).
Second: I see zero style-inappropriate Crystals in your grist that plague much of modern "Maerzen" recipes. There's no place for Crystal malts in a real Maerzen.
Third: no schitloads of catty hops late/dry hopping, just a single bittering hop addition, exactly what most of historical Maerzens had.
You'll have a great, true to the style Maerzen.
The proportions of Pilsner to Wiener to Munich are not much important in my opinion, I think you adjust them solely up to your taste.
How long exactly do you need to prolong the shelf life for? If for less than a year then I think you're OK without adding any preservatives. My last year's Maerzen was brewed in December and bottled in March. I drank the last bottle of the batch in October. The only aging effect I noticed was a reduced hoppiness (which I welcomed) and increased Melanoidin flavour notes (which I welcomed even more).

AlexKay

For what it's worth, Kunze does have a section on caramel malts, and says Carahell is an ingredient for festbier, and darker caramel malts for altbier.
And the German maltsters' websites say that their caramel malts are to be used in German styles. Here is Bestmalz's (click on the "Anwendung" tab); Weyermann's says something similar here.

Kickass

Might be a little heavy handed. If me, I’d start at no more 250g. Then adjust from there on future batches.

Protos

Despite the widespread myth, Melanoidin Malt isn't a substitution for decoction, even chemically. It's an ingredient in its own right, with a different impact on the beer. The main contribution of decoction isn't just adding Melanoidin compounds (which MelanoMalt adds much more effectively) but the extraction of more fermentable and unfermentable substances and tannins.
If anything, Melanoidin Malt is a substitution for Munchner Malt (1:5) rather than for decoction as it contains same compounds as MuMalt (melanoidins) but doesn't produce the compounds that a decoction brings about with it.
You don't need Melano Malt in Maerzen. Maybe, in modern Festbier where you want the beer to retain a low colour while still having that Munich flavour. 4% of Melano will give approximately the same intensity of flavour as 20% of Munich while keeping the colour lower.