My first non corn mash.

smalltim3

Greeting and salutations all.
As the subject states I am finally moving away from full blown sugar washes with cracked corn and attempting a multi grain build. Now I won't say I am doing all grain because I am going to add sugar as a safety net to ease my way into all grain mashes. I hope to eventually get away from the added sugar but I figure baby steps are the way to go. So I have a 20 gallon copper pot with a 3 gallon copper thump and 3 gallon copper worm. I have been making sugar head washes with cracked corn from my local feed store as flavoring for a year or so now. I have also used fruit wine base to make a few fruit brandies and have successfully (and some not so successful) made some good tasting liquors. I am now wanting to try a smoother style of whiskey so i am moving into different grains as stated. Here is the bill I am planning to make in a couple weeks...
10 lbs 2 row brewers malt (already crushed from the supplier)
10 lbs flaked barly (which I plan on running through my food processor)
6 lbs of rolled oats (quaker oats or equivalent also to be food processed)
20 lbs of sugar
20-25 gallon of fresh spring water (locally sourced)
4-5 tbsp of DADY yeast
I plan to ferment on the grain and hope to get a starting gravity in the 1.060 range. I will actually check that while mashing in to determine the amount of sugar I will actually use. Usually when I make this size wash I can fill the pot and still have enough left over to charge the thumper as well. I would love any and all feedback from all you professionals out there

Sporacle

Personally I would go for the 1.060 for my SG from all grain. I would adjust my grain ratios to achieve above that in a 20 gallon ferment and then if your conversion is excellent then you can add some water to get your SG down, if your conversion doesn't work so well then go with the sugar.
Keep notes on temps and times, good luck" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

bcook608

I agree with sporacle. If you're going to try to go all grain, really commit to it. My first ever mash was a Honey Bear Bourbon all grain mash and it was amazing. I'm planning some more all grain ferments soon because I'm running out. I would recommend doing one of the tried and true recipes for all grain, but if you're really wanting to go after the recipe you listed, here's what I would do:
replace your 20lbs of sugar with 20lb of corn and you'll be right at 2.3lbs of grain per gallon of water. Bring the corn, barley, and oats to 190 until your mash is nice and thin and super sticky. You'll be able to see the sugar stringing off of your spoon as it's converting. The finer the grind, the faster this will happen. Add hi temp alpha amylase from fermsolutions during your heat up and it'll thin out really well. After a few hours, lower the temp to around 145 and add your malts with a dose of fermsolutions gluco amylase and allow it to convert further. Once your starch test comes back negative, lower the temp to around 90 for pitching.
While you're waiting for it to cool, prepare your yeast bomb from Shady's Sugar Shine and pitch once it reaches temp. There are conversations that have been had both ways as to whether or not you need to rehydrate your yeast, but it can't hurt. Take some of your mash and water it down a bit and use it to kick start your yeast.
How large is your fermenter? With the oats in the grain bill, make sure you leave yourself about 3x as much headspace as you think you'll need. That shit is aggressively foamy, ask me how I know. If you can, set up a blow off tube into a half gallon jar that's about 1/3 full of water. This will help catch any foam that tries to escape.- New users start here
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squigglefunk

FWIW I believe a lot of people like to cook the grains at diff temps, corn higher (around 190) and the oats/wheat/barley/rye at lower temps (around 150)

bcook608

FWIW I believe a lot of people like to cook the grains at diff temps, corn higher (around 190) and the oats/wheat/barley/rye at lower temps (around 150)You're probably right. I was just basing it off of how I did my last AG- New users start here
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smalltim3

I appreciate the feedback.  A couple questions.  First I thought, based on my reading, that since I'm using the 2 row malt that I would not need to use the amylase for my ferment? I know that I need to make sure there's enough malt to break down everything based on diastatic power and what not which is why I went with basically 50/50 with the non malted barley, obviously not counting the oats but I figured with that much malt the small amount of oats wouldn't effect anything so I wouldn't have to do too much math!!  

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Second question, how much flavor will the corn impart? I don't particularly care for the sugar wash corn whiskey I've been making, I use it mainly for mixing into different fruit juice cocktails which is why I am trying this barley and oat mash. I'm looking for a nicer mouth feel so I will be aging with a medium toasted american oak. Which leads to another discussion between staves and cubes and chips but that's another animal lol.
To answer your last question bcook, my fermenter for doing single runs like this is a 30 gallon brute can so I should have plenty of head space for the foam head. Thanks again for the reply.

Twisted-Brick

Congrats on elevating your game from sugar washes, smalltim3. As you gain knowledge and experience your spirits will steadily improve and your taste buds will thank you.  The more recipes you read through the more sense they will begin to make to you.
As long as you satisfy your DP requirements with malt, no amylase required. Curious, at one point I did side-by-side comparisons of just malt vs malt + enzymes and the difference in gravity was minimal.  Nonetheless, some 'stillers employ added enzymes 'for insurance', while others feel they can convert some sugars that malt may not.
Corn provides a 'base' layer of sweetness that eventually loses its 'corny' flavor as it ages. If you follow the AG recipes in the Tried and True section you will discover you don't need sugar and the quality of your spirits will increase.  
There is a very agreeable grain sweetness to malted barley (any malt, really) that contributes nicely to a quality whiskey. As you know, malt also provides enzymes for conversion.  Flaked barley is steamed to facilitate flattening and pre-gelatinization, is not malted, and while it doesn't bring any DP to the party, it does bring a higher grain bill cost. Anything flaked (corn, barley, wheat, rye) the distiller is paying extra for someone else to pre-gelatinize the grain that you are going to gelatinize yourself via the conversion process in your mash. Many feel there's no need to pay that premium.
Lastly, know that individual grains behave and need to be treated slightly differently.  Gel temps, potential (sugar) yield, individual DP, gumminess, flavor profile, etc all contribute something important to your whiskey.   Here  is one pro distiller's approach to handling small grains.
Lastly, as you dive down the AG rabbit hole, you might consider conducting smaller test mashes to learn what you don't like and what wets your whistle.
Oh, and welcome to HD!“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”
- W.C. Fields
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smalltim3

Thanks Twisted Brick.  The reason I am doing the 20 gallon mash is due to having a 20 gallon pot.  I figure if I'm going to fire it up and run it I might as well get a full pot out of it. Not to mention the safety factor of running too small of a charge. When I do the sugar and cracked corn runs I do a 55 gallon mash in a food grade barrel which usually gets me 2 full and one 3/4 or better full pot run.  Which lasts along time when all I am using it for is different flavors of mixed drinks. i.e apple pie, cranberry, grape and salted caramel. The all grain is for a true "sipping whiskey" after some aging without having to add juices and such to make it (to me) palatable. That's not to say that is isn't good, just that it isn't what I care to sit on the porch and watch the world go by with a glass of.

smalltim3

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Here’s my set up so you all know what I’m working with.

Avalir

I've always found corn to give a very mellow and mild flavor that's more or less difficult to detect through other grain flavors that are present (I'll make whiskey/bourbon with around 70% corn and I wouldn't say my final product tastes like corn). Most would say corn mostly provides sweetness and is a smooth distillate. If you're looking for mouthfeel I'd strongly recommend moving to just AG instead of a hybrid - though with your target gravity, I would speculate you shouldn't have a significant impact to mouthfeel. But great choice with the oats - myself, along with many others here, love them; they'll give you a phenomenal mouthful that's smooth and creamy. A lot of the mouthfeel comes through in and near the tails, so just be sure to strip deep to make sure it can seep into the hearts of your spirit run."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

shadylane

Baby steps.  

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I'd recommend including HTL and Gluco enzymes as part of the baby steps.
As to the flavor that corn brings to the party.
Ageing will make the corn flavor more neutral.

squigglefunk

I am not sure but it really sounds like you're doing "one and done" runs? A 20 gallon mash is nowhere near enough for a 20 gallon still to make decent whiskey (or white dog even) ... you want to do at least two distillations. The usual is at least two stripping runs which then are run low and slow for a spirit run.
If you're doing "one and done" for the "sugar wash corn whiskey" that you don't particularly like then I could understand why  


also I am not a thumper expert but I think yours is undersized.

bcook608

I agree with you on the malts, I was mostly saying that adding corn and enzymes is a better "insurance" policy than adding sugar- New users start here
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Twisted-Brick

Sure is. Better flavor too.“Always carry a flagon of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore, always carry a small snake.”
- W.C. Fields
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smalltim3

I am not sure but it really sounds like you're doing "one and done" runs? A 20 gallon mash is nowhere near enough for a 20 gallon still to make decent whiskey (or white dog even) ... you want to do at least two distillations. The usual is at least two stripping runs which then are run low and slow for a spirit run.
If you're doing "one and done" for the "sugar wash corn whiskey" that you don't particularly like then I could understand why  


also I am not a thumper expert but I think yours is undersized.
I have been doing one and done because of the thump keg.  As to the size, that is the size that came in the still kit I ordered. Unfortunately I am not set up to bypass the thump to run stripping runs from the pot straight to the worm which I thought was the requirement for stripping runs.  The way I understand it is that the thumper gives a second distillation eliminating the need to rerun through the pot.  I suppose technically it's close to half a run through the pot as opposed to a full run.  I have been thinking about making a bypass line to go straight to the worm from the cap I just haven't had the time.  Which is another reason for the one and done with the thumper.

juana_b

If the unions on your rig are all oriented in the same direction, you should be able to raise your worm up and connect it directly to the ell off the lyne arm. If not, never mind.
And FWIW, since I started stripping really deep, I haven't even used my thumper. There's heaps of flavor down there that I want in my low wines rather than diluting with water.

Sporacle

If the unions are set up it should be easy enough to bypass as Juana B said, just be aware of the proximity of your worm outlet to your flame" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

Dancing4dan

If you still have the copper coil sitting on the floor, all you need is a union to bypass your thump. Just use some copper line and a union to join your still to your worm. Maintain a safe distance and you are GTG.
You will be able to add the thump back in any time."What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
Yellow Label... I put that sh#t on everything!

smalltim3

If you still have the copper coil sitting on the floor, all you need is a union to bypass your thump. Just use some copper line and a union to join your still to your worm. Maintain a safe distance and you are GTG.
You will be able to add the thump back in any time.
I do still have the coil, the problem I am running into is that the unions I bought when setting everything up I had to drive an hour to find.  My local big box stores nor mom and pop hardware stores had any.  I purchased the unions I would need to not use the thump from my local Lowes only to discover that the connections are different even though the pipe size is correct.  Talk about frustrating!  I work all three shifts rotating weekly so finding the time to make the hour drive to get fittings that (hopefully) will work is a challenge especially when adding in all the other things that take up my time besides work.  I'm not planning on making this mash until after thanksgiving so I am going to try to make that drive.

shadylane

That will work.   


Just remember, the thump will be slowly filling during the run.
Since your thumper is on the small size. Ya don't want too much liquid in it at the beginning.  

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On a side note.
If I was running your still.
A thumper is a multi-use tool.
I'd use it every time, one way or another.  

squigglefunk

so with a thumper is "one and done" the norm? Sorry I don't have any experience with thumpers.

Dancing4dan

If you still have the copper coil sitting on the floor, all you need is a union to bypass your thump. Just use some copper line and a union to join your still to your worm. Maintain a safe distance and you are GTG.
You will be able to add the thump back in any time.
I do still have the coil, the problem I am running into is that the unions I bought when setting everything up I had to drive an hour to find.  My local big box stores nor mom and pop hardware stores had any.  I purchased the unions I would need to not use the thump from my local Lowes only to discover that the connections are different even though the pipe size is correct.  Talk about frustrating!  I work all three shifts rotating weekly so finding the time to make the hour drive to get fittings that (hopefully) will work is a challenge especially when adding in all the other things that take up my time besides work.  I'm not planning on making this mash until after thanksgiving so I am going to try to make that drive.That is frustrating! I had the same issue with unions. Big plumbing supplier said he had never seen this problem before. Pipe size is the same but the union coupling threads are different size."What harms us is to persist in self deceit and ignorance"
Marcus Aurelius
Yellow Label... I put that sh#t on everything!

shadylane

Yes, thumpers are often used for one and done.
I'd bet money, that historically, thumpers were mostly used for that.
That being said.
Using a thumper, for one and done is an efficient way to distill.
But it doesn't make the best whiskey or shine.
With a pot and thumper  
I'd use both for stripping and redistilling  

smalltim3

So I've been looking around and was wondering if someone has a link or would be able to tell me what a safe minimum level would be to run my pot? As I said it is a 20 gallon pot and I use propane to heat.  I know not to charge it with anything higher than 40 abv for a spirit run for safety but what is the minimum volume I need? Or how would I calculate that? I can't seem to find a thread with that info anywhere.

bcook608

With indirect heating (Fire, propane, natural gas) you don't have to worry so much about "minimum" charges beyond common sense. You want to make sure that you're not going to run dry and scorch your mash/wash. As long as you have at least a few gallons and you don't run too aggressively, you don't have much to worry about.
That being said, you should always try to run as large of a charge as you can in order to get the most out of your runs.- New users start here
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bcook608

Most of the people you see talking about minimum charges are those who are running internal electric elements which would burn up if exposed.- New users start here
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smalltim3

With indirect heating (Fire, propane, natural gas) you don't have to worry so much about "minimum" charges beyond common sense. You want to make sure that you're not going to run dry and scorch your mash/wash. As long as you have at least a few gallons and you don't run too aggressively, you don't have much to worry about.
That being said, you should always try to run as large of a charge as you can in order to get the most out of your runs.I definitely fill it to capacity with my initial stripping runs, or my one and done's to be more accurate. I just wasn't sure if there was such a thing as too little in a pot for the spirit run.  Thanks for the info on only needing  a couple gallons though!

smalltim3

I'll have to check and see if they're both going the same way when I pull her out next.  That isn't something I paid attention to when I was doing my plumbing.  Although hindsight being what it is, I know see that I definitely should have.  And I do think it would be too close if not making an all new connection piece.  Maybe not in a technical sense but in a makes my manhood shrivel up having explosive vapors in even remotely and unsafe distance from an open flame.