Questions About Sugar Wash Results

Avalir

Hello,
I'll begin by saying I'm not new to fermenting and distilling. I've been making some top notch AG bourbon for about two years now. The main reason I'm here is that I haven't played with sugar since my first 3 months in this hobby before I abandoned it completely just due to unsatisfactory results. I know there are many here that will swear their sugar wash results and that they achieve great results, so I'm more than willing to believe my poor results in the past were due to my inexperience, ignorance, and my don't follow a recipe and learn by failure approach.
When I recently upgraded to a 15 gallon rig, I did make a sugar wash to be used for a sacrificial cleaning run just do to it being minimally time consuming and labor intensive, plus it would be discarded anyway. I did the bare minimum of additives per my current knowledge and only used 1 lb or sugar per gallon for this wash, and I have to admit that just sniffing my sacrificial distillate, it smelled a whole lot more promising than anything I made way back when I played with sugar.
I've been contemplating making a vodka/neutral for some time now and am debating giving sugar a second chance - mostly because I have a hard time getting excited about running 100 lbs of whole wheat through my grain crusher.
So I guess my biggest question would be for those that make both sugar neutrals and AG neutrals is would you say the results are comparable?
The biggest thing I remember from using sugar was the god awful sugar bite/burn in the distillate that I never get with AG. I'm curious if that's just inevitable with sugar washes or if it really was related to my inexperience and probably getting greedy and trying to ferment too high of an abv wash. If I recall right, I would use 2 lbs of sugar per gallon.
Secondly, if there is a notable difference between results of sugar and AG (I have a plated column with reflux I can employ), would differences become negligible with the use of washing soda [sodium carbonate] and/or charcoal filtering?
Right now, if I pursue a sugar wash neutral, I think I'd only use 1.25 lbs per gallon (possibly up to 1.5), use DADY yeast (I find it to be a little more neutral than bakers yeast), clear with some bentonite clay (just to speed things up since I'm not interested in retaining any flavor), I would strip the wash via pot still, strip again with washing soda in the boiler with my plated column (reflux off), charcoal filter or maybe just let it rest a week with charcoal in the distillate and allowing it to air, and finishing by distilling with the plated column with reflux on and more washing soda in the boiler.
Based on the communities experience, should this produce exceptional results for a neutral and be comparable to an AG neutral (with the same added steps taken)? Or is there any other recommendations for how to improve sugar wash quality I should consider? Or would I just be best off doing the labor intensive and horrendously long task of grinding 100 lbs of wheat?
Thanks in advance for any feedback and/or suggestions."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

dunluce

If you're making a "top notch AG bourbon" for two years now, you ARE new to distilling.  But good for you if you think your product has been coming out nice, that's seriously great.
If you can make a good AG, then a sugar wash should not be an issue.  Check out Shady's Sugar Shine:  viewtopic.php?t=70585
Read a few pages of the thread, get a sense of it, and you'll make a nice neutral following that.

Avalir

Oh, believe me, it still has room for improvement and I'm constantly looking to up the flavor and quality. But I don't have any complaints from anyone that's tried it and I can't go back to store bought. Per feedback I've heard from people who spend serious money on bourbon, I've had mine compared to eagle gold and pappy. I can only personally attest to it being superior to willett reserve.
I'm a long way from being a master, but I'm making steps in the right direction it seems.
I appreciate the fast reply and link!"I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

dunluce

Then you should have no issue with the recipe for a sugar wash, or producing a fine neutral.  I have used Shady's recipe with a boka still, and it is an incredibly clear and light neutral. However, I've also done a stripping run with a pot still, and I was very surprised how well the low wines tasted coming off of the pot still.
Give it another shot.  And if you are doing AG recipes anyway, why not turn around and brew a sugarhead? You have the spent grains, just need the sugar and water, and a yeast culture to get it moving. It's an easy recipe to give you something to ponder while the bourbon ages.

Salt-Must-Flow

For the cleanest neutral with a good reflux column you should aim for the highest ABV possible. Hopefully your plated column is capable.
I've only ever used bakers yeast and have no complaints. I've never cleared a wash before stripping. Sometimes I would pump the wash over to the boiler leaving behind any settled solids. Half the time I'd just ferment inside my stripping boiler, stripped it (settled solids and all) and haven't noticed any difference. In about a week I'm going to try clearing with Bentonite just for fun and see how it goes.
You really shouldn't have to use any Carbon filtering if the column is comparable to a packed column. If it isn't, strip it, dilute, reflux it, dilute and reflux it again. I would go with Shady's Sugar Shine recipe. I'm trying it right now for the first time. I've been using a nearly identical recipe only I've been using a lot more boiled yeast for nutrient. Shady's uses less boiled yeast and more yeast for pitching. It is a good recipe.
I haven't done a lot of all grain, but I intend to do a lot more soon. I don't own a grain mill and my local co op doesn't either. They have a grinder, but it comes out more like a mix of flour and corn meal size particles. I'll have to figure out how to deal with that or buy a grain mill I guess.
Sugar washes are just so simple and much less time consuming. I'd say try it both ways and see which way you prefer.

Avalir

As far as the sugarhead with spent grains, I just don't have much of an interest. My AG results are very flavorful and smooth and I just don't think I could achieve anything close to it with a sugarhead. Besides, I usually promptly toss all my spent grains to the chickens, so they still have that use. At least at this time, my only interest in sugar will be for a neutral as a less labor intensive route vs grinding and mashing.
And for the performance of my plated column and reflux setup, it doesn't have an issue giving me a 94%+ abv distillate, so I should be able to get sufficiently clean and neutral results.
I mostly plan to use the neutrals for making extracts and kahlua, and possibly save some if the quality is acceptable for the old lady to mix cocktails. So my hesitation on putting in the work for an AG neutral is I'd rather create my spirit of choice if I need to put in that much time and labor."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Steve-Broady

I believe the suggestion of doing a sugarhead was to make a pleasant neutral, not to make more whiskey. Basically, since you already have all that grain sitting there, why not make a grain vodka/neutral instead of just a sugar neutral? You’re still using sugar, but hopefully putting a little better flavor in there. Worst case scenario, you’re not going to do any worse than a straight sugar wash.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

NZChris

A sugarhead done on the spent grains is very suitable for making flavored products.  The chickens still get the grains when you are finished with them.
You can also use the backset and use the yeast already in the grain bed.
Don't make the common greedy newbie mistakes of using fancy yeast, high SG wash, greedy strips etc., and you should be ok.
An SG around 1.064 is high enough.  If that won't yield enough alcohol for you, put it in a bigger fermenter and do more strips.

Avalir

Ah, okay. I probably misunderstood that suggestion. Was rushing to read and respond before I had to get back to work.
I'm at least not interested in any flavors being added with the sugarhead route, but with the extra steps I plan for cleaning it up (I'm a firm believer that vodkas should be tasteless by definition - if you want flavor, drink whiskey).
But one thing that it does have me thinking about now, is would you think spent grain alone would provide sufficient nutrients for the yeast to ferment happily? I'm not very big on the use of most additives and/or chemicals as supplements when it's non-essential, in my experience less is more.
I'm sure the chickens will be happy with the grains no matter how used they are. So if no extra nutrients would be required, definitely a recommendation I'll take to heart, otherwise I may as well spare myself the extra time in straining the grains post fermentation."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Avalir

And now that I think about it more, it actually shouldn't be much of a pain to remove the spent grains I used - I already have them in straining bags after the first ferment, so should be able to keep them in the bags for nutrient purposes and that would be an easy cleanup."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

NZChris

If you are using the trub for the next wash, there isn't as much point in squeezing every last drop out of it.  I siphon off what I can get easily and leave the rest for the sugar head.  The yeast is ready to rock and is hungry for sugar and water, so feed it.

Avalir

My biggest concern is that my fermenter is in no way air tight, so unless I strain and scold the spent grains, I may be looking at some infection flavors in a sugarhead."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

SDEngr1

Ethanol is ethanol it doesn't matter the sugar source. I have found that using inverted sugar and keeping the PABV around 13% max work well.

Salt-Must-Flow

The fermenter doesn't have to be air tight at all and the chances of infection is very low. I can't even count how many 45 gal sugar washes I've fermented and I don't sanitize anything. You don't need an air lock either. You can do as little as cover it with something just to keep bugs out. The starting ph will fight infection and as every day passes the % ABV goes up to fight infection as well. I've never had a sugar wash get infected.

squigglefunk

The fermenter doesn't have to be air tight at all and the chances of infection is very low. I can't even count how many 45 gal sugar washes I've fermented and I don't sanitize anything. You don't need an air lock either. You can do as little as cover it with something just to keep bugs out. The starting ph will fight infection and as every day passes the % ABV goes up to fight infection as well. I've never had a sugar wash get infected.yup, I use a open 55 gallon fermenter covered with a towel and I've made several successive AG ferments then followed by a "sugar head" ferment with no contamination issues that I noticed.

Avalir

That's good to know. I'll give the sugarhead a try after my next bourbon mash and see how I like it."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green

Dougmatt

I will probably get flamed for this because it’s expensive, but I’m saying it anyway.  I use corn sugar on my spent grains for anything I want to drink as is..  Find it reduces the sugar bite to almost nothing for me and makes a nice product.  Did about 20 different sugar washes / heads with regular white sugar and didn’t care for it, so tried the corn sugar and really liked the difference.  It’s about 2-3 times more expensive but 10x more drinkable for me.
If I am going to use it in something like Punkin Muck or a panty droper sugar wash is fine.  But if I want the flavor from the still, I use corn sugar on a sugar head.  
I am not after a neutral.   If I was, then I wouldn’t do a sugar head on spent grains becuase I have a pot still, but if you are reflux that may be “good enough” for you.
Just some random thoughts.  
D

squigglefunk

this is the best part about home brewing/distilling, you can make your own choices! I know some people swear by the sugar inverting too, I could not taste a difference.
I have noticed less "sugar bite" when I don't try and push the starting gravity too high. Like 1.065 or so is what I shoot for. I have gotten some good "sugar heads" this way

Avalir

Well, after some time dwelling on all this and doing additional research, I think I'll pick up at least a 36" column to use instead of the plated column since per my research it should give me a more neutral result and hopefully let me run a bit faster. I know I struggle with ethyl acetate with the plated column, so I imagine the tall column can't do worse for separation and should be able to handle the take off better if I pH up. Just debating if I should get one long column or several shorter ones - the feints I save for my whiskey are just tails and I run them into the sweetwater so my feints end up ~15% which makes me worry that an all feint run would end up lower than the abv I like to oak at. I'm hoping a 10-12" column might bump it up high enough, or if I should just boost abv of the feints with neutrals to achieve aging proof. My long term goal for whiskey is to produce as much as I need to for an all feint, then blend the all feint product with the rest before aging. But then may need a 10-15 gallon aging vessel to do it all together. Hopefully I can decide on a long term strategy so I can give people gift ideas and not have to worry about buying the hardware myself. Worst case, I'll just have more parts for the collection that I can experiment with later."I am a man. And I can change. If I want to. I guess." ~Red Green