My plans (cynicism appreciated)

Kedumba

Hi all,
Obligatory first post disclaimer: sorry for whatever the fuck the problems are with this
I want to start distilling to make my own Gin and sell it at a small scale sometime this year, and after watching a bunch of YouTube videos (I know, sorry) and all the necessary reading here I have some ideas for how I want to run my still but I'd really appreciate some insults and opinions and feedback about my ideas.
I'm thinking of buying a 60L (15 gallon) SS reflux or flute still. I may make the second still myself once I'm used to this one
I like the idea of a slightly corn flavoured spirit so I want a mostly corn mash with amylase of some form and glucose. If I wouldn't have any flavour leftover in my spirit though I might just go with a sugar wash.
I'm thinking of using DADY or champagne yeast and supplementing with DAP and other yummies for them because I want a high ABV mash (nearly 20%) unless it would make my flavour worse.
Is there any reason to use clarifying agents like keiselsol and Chitosan rather than just straining mash through a cloth or something?
It seems like the best distilling process is one quick and dirty strip run, then one distill into a neutral spirit, then one final run to vapour infuse botanicals. Running and cleaning the still three times for one output seems like a lot... Is there a way I can cut this down to any quicker without sacrificing quality? I don't mind if the spirit's not entirely neutral, as long as there's no chemically nasty flavours left.
I'm still kind of in the dark about heating but I hear a 240V element is a good amount for 15 gallons. I'll study the forums for the specifics on these things.
If the liquor is to bitey for me, I'll charcoal filter it or a portion of it and add some glycerol. I'm happy to tone down alcohol heat but I don't want to have to try to hide any off flavours from the mash.
Most of this is all stuff I'd learn pretty quickly once I got stadted, but the earlier on I can get the most peoples' opinions the better I reckon
Thank you all heaps!

Kedumba

P.S. follow up question: is there any chance my still would take more than 14 hours to run? I read on here someone estimating a still half this size could take 14 and that's a massive commitment every distilling day

ErictheRed

There is a lot to unpack in the above.
I'll pick the point about cleaning the still
Nope - not needed unless you really fug it up - give it a rinse when done.
Next - Stripping/Spirit runs
So, 3 - 4 x faststrips (with a preheater will take about 10 - 11 hours), then the result of that in a spirit run which will take about 8 - 10 - 12 hours (external influences will play a factor)
You would use your large still to do the above and use one about 25% that size for your actual gin run. Which would be a pot still (otherwise all you doing is removing the flavours you just spent time getting into it)
Now - you will be directed by many to start with the Tried and True recipe section for good ones for your purposes.
Once you have the 'neutral' - then head over to Odin's Easy Gin
Once you've 'mastered' that - start playing with flavours
Also check out the build forums - lots of copper porn!

gp2gzxmarmx.gif

My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D

Chauncey

Are you a legal and permitted because we don't condone illegal liquor sales. You will need a DSP number in your signature as well to discuss things that are outside of hobby distillation,  afaik.
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning,  I sleep till noon.

Kedumba

Thank you heaps Eric! I definitely could have split this into many posts I know but I wanted people with more experience to pick out the most glaring things for them.
Two lots of Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

Kedumba

I agree overall but from my end his keeper cut would be less...cynical...if you will.
But yea, hard game to make profit in. Very hard.
When people tell me I'll regret that in the morning,  I sleep till noon.

Ben

You should probably practice fermenting in much smaller containers.
I would recommend nothing larger than a wall mounted stainless steel toilet.

kshzcp2ddo4.gif

If you plan for an "overnight" brew you will have to cut your ABV ambitions down to about 6-7%. No more than a pound of sugar to the gallon. Should taste like cheap chardonnay from the Riviera.

2c5lozzwmxq.gif

This becomes easier when you understand your water's characteristics.

subbrew

I'd recommend to stick with your 15g still for the 3x strips / 1x spirit run protocol to get your neutral. Packed CCVM column for the spirit run and pot still mode for the strips. Shady's Sugar Shine is a good T&T recipe to start with for neutral. Recommend using a smaller still to then do gin batches of a liter or two in size to get your gin chops up. You could do a single or 1.5 run on the packed CCVM for a neutral but might as well strip three full charges and have more hearts after cuts to experiment on different gin recipes if you;re going to do it anyway.. You can do a 15g strip in 2-3 hrs and a 15g spirit run in 8-12 hrs with a 5k5W heater element @ 240V depending on how low and slow you pull fores on each of those runs..
Good luck with getting it going!
Cheers,
j————
i make stuff i break stuff
water into whiskey into water
just getting started in home distilling - been drinking for decades
16g copper pot still, 10l alembic, and a column or two
————

still_stirrin

I think you have a lot to learn , seems that youv'e watched a bit to much Youtube
First you need to slow down......you seem to be in an aweful rush and happy to take shortcuts.
There are no short cuts in this game if you want to make a good final product..........that means that you need to learn how to make a good clean neutral before you even start on gin making. That doesn't mean having to carbon filter it to make it clean "If the liquor is to bitey for me"
If its to "bitey" and you have to carbon filter then you havnt done your job properly in the first place.
Any fool can make rotgut rubbish, it takes time and patience  to make a product that you can be  proud of.Yes high abv is going to make your final product much worse.Why the glucose.?

Chauncey

Thank you all heaps, I really appreciate it. To answer some of the repeated points on here:
I won't push the ferment to 20% then, I'm happy to leave multiple ferments going over the course of a week or two so no need for an overnight ferment. I'll experiment and see if I can get to 15% if using DADY and nutrients without hurting flavour.
I'm definitely doing this first and foremost to make a beautiful Gin for myself. I just happen to believe that a lot of other people in my demographic would also be interested in what I am.
I don't want to discuss monetary stuff on here so if anyone wants to PM me I'd love to talk to you about why I think I can make some decent pocket change on a hobby I'm passionate about even if not an actual wage, and you can tell me what hurdles I'm blind to at the moment.
I have no interest in taking shortcuts that have been proven to make a worse spirit, as a great spirit is the most important thing to me, but I know forums like this can get quite intense about small details so if there was any contention on whether a shortcut could actually hurt my final spirit, I would want to try it out. But I appreciate being told that some shortcuts (like pushing my ferment) just absolutely wouldn't work so I shouldn't try them to start with.
Will try Odin's method first (but with different botanicals), then once I'm comfortable with that, will try to find ways to make it better for me.
Re gluten: I saw in some of the T&T recipes that they used corn and sugar, using the corn more for flavour. I saw that and thought "I want flavour from corn, but it'd probably be cheaper to boost the potential ABV with sugar, at least in Australia" and I'm under the impression that if you're going to use sugar, glucose is the easiest for the yeast to eat

bunny

Ito going commercial
You need volume.
Leaving out all the pita of permits, licenses,  regulations, marketing, spoilage (theft, samples, etc) bottling, labeling, space rental, water, power, taxes......
If you want to make something of monetary gain, you need volume.
Let's assume all the above is sorted.
Target AUS$ 10,000 profit a month.
Profit of 5 per bottle.
That's 2000 bottles.
Or 1500 litres
Using 20% (high)as good product from your mash after cuts etc, that means you need to mash in minimum 7500 litres a month.
Split that into weekly mashes, you need to work on mashing in 2000 litres per week.
Get the idea on the size of kit you need? And the amount of time?
To carry on for the weekly tasks
10 x 200 litre fermenters
4 x 450 litre strips
1 x 450 to 500 litre spirit.
Cuts
Now ready for gin run.
Cynical enough?

mmfr42uzaxk.gif

My fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D

jonnys_spirit

Aight I give in, let's get into money in this forum. Let it be known I'd be more comfortable discussing this in PMs though
After including price of tax, bottling, labelling, and ingredients, it'll cost $40 per bottle based on a quick google, and I could definitely get a little cheaper if I researched more into wholesale (however most of that is Australia's insane excise tax)
I'm planning on starting off with just two gins (I have plans for other versions and spirits to release afterwords). A fairly general price for a fancy, small batch, high ABV Gin in Australia is $100.
My cheaper version (still interesting botanicals but no interesting techniques) I am thinking of selling for $69, so cheaper than competition, and my fancier version (interesting techniques, message me to talk about them if you want) I am thinking of selling for $99.
So we'll say $40ish average profit per bottle sold. About $15 average per bottle sold would go to a friend I'd employ to do sales if I'm busy distilling. So $25ish back to me / the company per bottle.
$175PW rent for small warehouse, $5PW electricity and water.
If my friend and I can sell 40 bottles a week (obviously I'm not going to rely on assuming we will, that's why I'm interested in some "shortcuts" as SB put them, so I can have time for a real job too), the company and I will make >$800 a week, and even half of that much seems awesome to me.
Don't mean this to sound like I think I know more than anyone with genuine experience, just wanted to discuss the figures I'm considering at the moment as they look great in their current clean state, not yet tarnished by real life messiness. Hence why I want cynicism, so I can get a bit more of a feel for the real world messiness
I do appreciate you taking your time of day for this Eric!!!

Saltbush-Bill

as an experimental business - why not buy in your neutral - would save you a lot of capital expenditure while you are working out the recipies and the marketing
Just a thoughtMy fekking eyes are bleeding! Installed BS Filters - better! :D

Kedumba

OK here's my cynicism, 40 bottles a week is a lot of booze. The ramp up in scale vs the probability of success is something to consider.
Gin here in Oz is the absolute flavour of the month with at least 4 distillers opening their doors in about the last 6 months.
I'm pretty sure they all buy in a GNS and then work from there.
It will take time to get a Neutral sorted, say you run a Shadys in order to get volume you run a 50 litre low wine and get 100% efficiency (arguments sake) so you end up with about 15 litres at 95.
We haven't cut yet, but let's assume that you got your base out of that, on a 2 inch reflux that's a 17hr day with heat up.
We've got to get that 50 L of low wines so we have to strip, so again on my rig we are stripping a 150L wash in three batches and with heat up we are looking at 10 hours in total
Depending on your method your gin run could be between 12 and 20 hours
Another day to to get your mash on .
It can be done and you will be busy, this is a perfect world where everything goes right.
150L wash in different seasons, what could go wrong?
Scaling up Odin's recipe has been done the problem is that minuscule taste profiles in small batches can become very noticeable when scaling up, this is why professional catering organisations are absolute about volumes.
Running a reflux for the first time?
It can be done, I could do it on a 50L 2 inch CCVM.
Would the product be any good, I doubt mine would be.
Personally I would build a small still and have a play around and see if you like it before over reaching
But hey whatever floats your boat

4enaycncr0c.gif

" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

ErictheRed

I suspect that your plan of making your own base spirit is flawed for the same reasons that most of your competition don't make theirs.  It's hard work, even if you use technology that allows you to distill automated or remotely, something that is very frowned upon on this forum for valid safety reasons.

Kedumba

Chris I listened to a really good podcast on a Tassie Whiskey Distillery, they started doing their own distillers beer and realised that a Brewerey down the road could do the exact recipe they were doing cheaper, faster and cleaner simply because they are geared up specifically  to make beer. It allowed them to concentrate on making Whiskey.
As always there will be crap in the market, it's the balance of quality vs price and determining where you sit on that scale.
It will be interesting to see the next fad through the distilling market, I'd love it to be all molly rum.
I'm assuming it will be flavoured vodka

y5wcu5dhoc4.gif

" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

ErictheRed

Absinthe made a comeback then disappeared before before anyone noticed.  It's still a hit in my own shed, but I doubt I could make a marketable product out of it, even though it is easy and cheap to make and is very tasty.

Sporacle

I don’t have any useful advice on the economics of your plan specifically. However, I have learned something in my life which I think might be helpful here. When everyone who knows anything on the subject of giving you the same advice, it’s probably a really good idea to stop and listen. When everyone in the market is doing the same thing and/or selling for the same price, that’s probably a very good reason for it.
In short, if you think you can succeed doing something vastly different than everybody else, you’d damn well better know intimately why nobody else is doing it and how you’re different. Otherwise, you’re just being arrogant in your ignorance.
I’m not saying you’re wrong or that you’re guaranteed to fail. I genuinely hope you succeed and wish you the best. However, based on what little I know, you seen a bit hand-wavy on the details, but it’s the details which will make our break your plan. Best get them sorted exactly and then run the numbers with a cold and cynical accountant before proceeding.Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

NZChris

Hand-wavey on the details is in very accurate. This isn't something that I would do for a long while so this is currently the stage of finding out a lot of the problems I might otherwise miss if I just keep digging deeper into a bad plan. And I really appreciate everyone showing me where my biggest problems lie.
I want to make my own base spirit for my own sake and for the sake of good gin, not for profit. Hence why companies near me will always make more money than me.
I think from this thread my biggest take away is to keep saving until I can afford to run a still that I can experiment on until I understand the process intimately and then consider making pocket change, not go into it hoping to pay back the still in two weeks lmao.
Thank you all heaps!

Sporacle

This is just my 2 cents worth, based on my own life experience. Your mileage may vary. Every time I have tried to turn a hobby into a commercial venture, I have regretted it. The whole point of a hobby for me is that it’s something I can do at my leisure and my discretion. The moment I went commercial, I had somebody else to please, I had deadlines, etc. In short, it changed from something I could do if I wanted into something that I had to do, and in that moment I stopped enjoying it. All I did was gain another job and lose a hobby. I’ve sworn it won’t happen again, no matter how tempting it is!Steve, you’re way behind time. This is not 38, but it’s old 97. You must put her into Spencer on time.

NZChris

$5pw power and water? How are you heating your boiler?
Sporacle, I reckon there’s 4 new distilleries opening up in Australia per month.
I totally agree with everyone where they say learn the craft on a hobby scale before moving to a commercial scale.--
50L Beer keg boiler, 2200W element
Modular 2" Pot Still
Modular 2" CCVM
opinions are free and everybody has them, experience costs you time

Steve-Broady

I should have edited that Kimbo, I meant 4 within a 40K radius, we went to a BBQ festival and there were 3 different Gin places all pushing about 4 different gins, plus a new rum Distillery and not one of them were offering a traditional gin or unspiced rum

" you can pick your nose and you can pick your friends; but you can't always wipe your friends off on your saddle" sage advice from Kinky Friedman

Kedumba

I may be a bit late to the conversation and I'm not going to touch on economics but as a fairly novice distiller myself, you are taking the hardest path.
Neutrals are tough, it wasn't until last year (and thanks to members here) that I realized my water was causing significant off flavors in my runs.  Just a tiny yeast stress can have huge deltas on neutral runs.  This isn't a problem on my whiskeys because the flavor is easily masked.  Even with gins, it covers well.  So maybe you have some play there but the point is you really have to have your game dialed in.  And when I say novice, I'm 3 years in.  Also, carbon filtration isn't as easy as you'd think.  That itself is a skill.
Also targeting 20% is crazy, you'd have a hard time finding a yeast capable of that.  Most can go up to 15% but even then you are stressing the hell out of them.  I like to target 10% because it is a good balance of stress and happens to make the math easy.  Don't run your mash at whatever gravity is 10% either.  Feed in sugar during the ferment, you'll get a lot better results.  (Assuming you are using sugar)
As others have said, in small scale, you are going to have quality control issues.  Small deviations in your recipe, ingredients, preparation, etc. are going to have noticeable deltas in your output.  At the hobby level Distillation is about being adaptable and pivoting when things go different than you planned.  At the commercial level it is about dialing in the process like you are a McDonald's.  
I have dreams of retiring and running a small organic farm where I brew/distill and sell those products along side other things at farmer's markets but this would be additional income on top of retirement.  $0.02

Steve-Broady

Even 15% is pushing it. Aim for a wash abv of around 10. Check out Shady's Sugar Shine in the T&T section
You're contradicting yourself. Don't try to "boost" a wash recipe. Aim for a SG of around 1.07 and focus on keeping your yeast happy if you're looking to make a neutral.
There are PLENTY of people here that have done the experimenting for you. Read, read, and read some more in the gin posts and neutral posts. Figure out what kind of equipment you will need based on what others have done and the results they got, and design your setup around the type of product you want to focus on initially.
Good luck in your adventures.- New users start here
- A message to new users
- Planning your first run
- Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still)
- My Rigs

kimbodious

I haven't aimed for over 10% for years.  My ferments with gin in mind as the final product are aimed at 8%.  Fast ferments, quick stripping runs, (I run a preheater).  Narrow heart cut from a pot still for much of my gin base spirit and an inexpensive glass marble packed copper column and Bokakob head for recycling those feints for very fine neutral for high class gins and for diluting essence strength gins that are, sometimes, distilled using a large Carter Head.I have a background in franchises, hotels and boutique fitness centers. And have worked with or consulted with quite a few tech startups. I have a lot of experience when it comes to starting new businesses.
Here are some buisness basics everyone ignores because they think they are smarter then everyone else. Then 90% are out of buisness in two years.
First off just to get started will take at least twice as long as you think it will even based on all your planning.
Next take the amount you will think it cost to start, then double it. Then triple that amount. For two reasons. Most businesses take 3 to 5 years to turn a profit. And thats the 10% that lasted two years. Of the businesses that make it past 2 years 90% are gone by year 5. Because they ran out of money.
The 2nd reason behind that estimate, most of the advice you get on costs from other startups is pure BS. Almost no one knows their real numbers. Many many expenses are left off the ledger. There are a lot of rich family members who helped out and the "loan" from uncle Bob isn't mentioned. And they lived off their well paid spouse or a trust fund. People don't like to admit that and want to appear "self made".
Those costs are probably the retail for everything. But doesn't include tax and shipping. You will also be hammered by smaller items. Printers, paper, insurance, buisness lunches, toilet paper, travel, on and on and on. That small stuff often ads up to more than the major capital expenses.
In addition to all that they want to sound like they were smart. And make the numbers smaller and the time frame shorter than it was. Makes a good story, but not true. What ever you base your numbers off is a half truth at best. This is true for EVERY industry.
So the reality is, regardless of what you do your chance of success and to still be in buisness in 5 years is at best 3%.
I am in a sorta similar position as you. I have a couple product ideas I would like to get to market one day. But I am spending the next 3 to 5 years doing this at the hobby level. To learn through experience what it really takes to make spirits.Mossback moonshiner in Cascadia.