Electric Brew Panel Troubleshooting

Wogman75

Hello Fellow Electric Brewers I am look for some help troubleshooting my control panel. I built a 30a Single Element BIAB Electric Brew Panel myself a few years ago from a kit I got on eBrewSupply http://guide.ebrew.supply/ using an Auber PID. It is a 16 Gallon Bayou Classic pot with a 5500 Cameco SS Ripple Element installed. I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that. I used this panel a hand full of times without any issues. The last time I used it which maybe more than a year ago now. I experienced and issue where in the middle of brew day when trying to boil my wort I kept tripping the breaker in my panel on the 240V circuit. I was able to wait a few minutes while I inspected and and then it would comeback on for a while and then trip again. Happened maybe 4 times. So I have not brewed with it again. I went over the wiring making sure that I had good connections everywhere and wanted to run a test. I filled with about 8 gallons of water and fired it up and everything seem to be working It took about 45 minutes to reach a temperature of ~180 and the breaker tripped once again. I not sure where to begin troubleshooting this. My suspicion is its happening when the SSR is trying to throttle the current to the element something is happening which trips the breaker or heat build up through running it for 45 minutes is causing breaker to trip. Anyone experience something similar or have experience troubleshooting something like this can lend advice on where to start?

doug293cz

Which breaker is tripping? Your post makes it sound like the main service (building breaker box) is the one tripping. Is this correct?
What is the amp rating of the breaker that is tripping?
Do you have a digital voltmeter?
Is there any discoloration of wire insulation near connections, or terminal blocks discolored or melted?
Brew on

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Wogman75

I believe its 25AMP marked C25, its the dual pole one on the Left of the picture that controls the 240V circuit. I have inspected and don't see any discolored or burnt wires. I checked for loose wire and combined some wires in a connector and then into contactor because I thought I maybe I wasn't getting a good connection? Could it be its a bad breaker? Like I said used this setup a hand full of time with no issues. Never had the spa panel trip or the breaker in the service panel trip. I see they sell the following part on their site ABB MCB ST200M 2P C 32a UL1077 but I don't want to put a higher Amperage breaker in if its not need.

doug293cz

Your element will draw about 23A at full power, so a 25A breaker should be sufficient. It's possible that the breaker is tripping at lower than rated amps (i.e. bad.) You could replace with a 32A breaker, as long as the wires are 10AWG or heavier. You can get a 2 pole 32A, DIN rail, UL rated breaker much cheaper here.
It looks like that breaker only carries the element current in your control box. Is this correct? The reason I asked about a volt/ohm meter, is that it is possible that your element is bad, and thus drawing too much current, causing the breaker to trip. Measureing the resistance between all three pairs of prongs on the plug can tell you if the element is the problem. The resistance between the two hot prongs should be ~10.47 ohms, and the resistance between either of the hot prongs and the ground prong should be infinite (on the highest resistance range of the meter.) If any of these resistances are less than this, then the problem is either in the element, the cord, or the plug.
Brew on

Bobby_M

I'm not saying this is it but i have had alot of bad breakers, some you can stomp your foot and it trips, I would replace it

doug293cz

I would also look at the connection to your element, I've had those go bad as well tripping breakers, in this case the breaker does it's job

Wogman75

A couple thoughts. First is that 45 minutes to reach 180F on 8 gallons is really slow even if the water started at 50F. It should be more like 25-30 minutes. I would look at your connections all along the element circuit and look for corrosion, gaps, loose screws. 5500 watt elements will pull just under 24 amps so it's already pretty close to the 25amp breaker limit.

doug293cz

Good point on the heat-up time. It's sounds like the element is not getting the voltage/current it should be.
@Wogman75 , where do the wires spliced into the element hot wires between the element enable contactor and the element outlet go?
Brew on

Wogman75

another thought if this is indeed the element and it had a shorted connection, once you clean the connection, the element may not work as expected

doug293cz

I do have a volt/ohm meter, when I check the ohms of the element do I have to have the feed wires disconnected to get a valid result? I am pretty sure you're right that that breaker only caries the load of the element and I believe all my heavy wires are 10 gauge, So I will check out the element and if it looks ok, see about replacing the breaker else replacing the element it not close to spec. Thanks for all the help guys.

Geezer-Glide

Just unplug the element cable from the outlet in the control panel. Then measure at the blades on the element cable plug. This will check the plug, cord, and element all at once. If an anomaly is found, then we can start to isolate to one of those three.
Brew on

doug293cz

Don't read too much into the time it took to heat it could have been less it was just a guestimate on my part. I looked at the element connections and don't see any corrosion or anything. I got my volt/ohm meter out but I don't trust it. It an old Radio Shack and no matter what I try and touch the probes to on the ohm setting it reads 0.
The two wires that are inline with the contactor feed the White 240V Led Lamp on the front panel that indicates power to the element and flashes as the element is Pulse width modulated as the PID is trying to zero in on set temp.

Geezer-Glide

Yeah, I wouldn't trust that meter. New digital meters are quite affordable, and are a necessity if you are working with DIY electrical equipment.
Understand about the spliced wires. When I tried to follow them in the pic, they looked like they went somewhere odd.
Brew on

doug293cz

I’ve done a fair amount of electrical trouble shooting. I would start by finding out how much you are actually drawing. If you have access to an “Amp-probe” you are golden. Measure what you are actually drawing. If it’s drawing more than the breaker rating, it’s the circuit, either oversized for the breaker or you either have a problem somewhere downstream from the breaker. If you are measuring less than the rating it’s likely the breaker. They do go bad. Especially if tripped often. Also it’s a GFI. Could it be tripping from ground fault? As best I recall it only takes about 10 mA to trip most GFI’s. Does your GFI indicate “fault tripping differently than ”over current”? Measuring what you are actually drawing is reasonable place to start.

Wogman75

OP has already said that it is a non-GFCI breaker in the control panel that is tripping.
Brew on

Geezer-Glide

I believe the OP stated that “I have a GFCI 30A SPA panel that runs off my fuse box and then my panel is connected to that.” I did NOT see that he said “non-GFI” if I missed something where he did state that, my apologies. As best I recall SPA panels are GFI protected. Of course it’s been years since I worked with that stuff professionally and NEC changes.

Geezer-Glide

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Brew on

Geezer-Glide

Yes I have a spa panel that is GFI protected that feeds the Brew Control panel, but it has never tripped nor has the service panel. The only breaker to trip is the non GFI in the Brew Control panel that Doug293cz has correctly noted. Thanks Doug.

doug293cz

Likely a bad breaker. The one you indicated is not a GFCI breaker and DIN mounted breakers are not expensive and can be replaced for about ~$13 from Amazon. That will likely fix it. You can also buy a shunt resistor and an inexpensive VOM for < $10 and tell how much your system is drawing if you do not have access to an Amp-Probe.
I am not a fan of ”shot-gunning” system problems but if replacing the breaker does not fix it there are inexpensive ways of trouble-shooting.