Russian imperial stout above alcohol tolerance

Nick-Z

I just brewed a Russian imperial stout and I screwed up. I boiled off too much and ended up with an OG of 1.124. As per the recipe (Czar's Revenge) I pitched US-05 yeast.
But that yeast won't be able to ferment it all the way. It's alcohol tolerance is around 9-11%. It won't be able to finish fermenting this down to the proper final gravity.
Worse yet: I bottle condition. The yeast won't be able to process the priming sugar and carbonate the beer.
The yeast is going to stall out around 1.050. What can I do to finish up the ferment and allow enough tolerance for bottle conditioning?
Thanks.

DBhomebrew

When did you brew it? You might want to add water to top up to your intended volume and gravity.

hotbeer

Get a more alcohol tolerant yeast to add to your priming solution when you bottle. I don't remember what the dosing amounts are, but it's not near what it is for the first ferment.
SafeAle / Fermentis has some thoughts on that and even sells a yeast specifically for using at carbonation time for big beers that might have tired yeast at their limit for alcohol tolerance. F-2 is the yeast, but in the USA, I've not seen any carry it except for BSG and they seem to be more for the commercial craft brewers. Though many just use champagne yeast I think.
But if you'd thought about it at the time you pitched, then you could have diluted to the OG the recipe was planned for. I use this calculator on Brewer's Friend quite a bit to dilute to the planned OG and it's been pretty accurate.

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Dilution And Boiloff Gravity Calculator - Brewer's Friend

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www.brewersfriend.com

z-bob

If it's ready to bottle, you might go with champagne yeast or CBC-1. Those can handle high alcohol but will not ferment higher sugars. If it needs to ferment and dry out a little more before bottling, maybe K1V-1116? You ought to have most of the flavor profile locked-in already; just don't use a diastaticus yeast like Belle Saison.
That's all book-learnin', not actual experience, so take it for what it's worth  I have brewed with K1V-1116 a couple of times, but not in a big beer yet.

McMullan

I believe it's called an Imperial Stout, unless it's being exported to Russia.

DBhomebrew

Not in the good ol' USA. Here we have ESBs nothing like Fullers ever made, Wee Heavies miles away from Fowler's, and RISs unlike anything Courage or BP ever shipped to Her Imperial Highness.

Nick-Z

About an hour ago. I was considering watering it down. I have distilled and RO water I could just dump in.

DBhomebrew

Do it! Fresh distilled from a sealed jug can go right in. RO that's been sitting around or from the tap should be boiled then cooled.

Nick-Z

Done. The new OG is 1.104. If it ferments to 1.30, as the recipe says it should, that is within the alcohol tolerance of the yeast (9.71% ABV)
Even if it finishes at 1.020 it might get over the finish line for 11.03%.
Beersmith thinks it will get down to 1.010. That might break the yeast. Though I'm not sure I want it to get that low.
I'm going to throw in some wine yeast or CBC-1 yeast at bottling time. I have both on hand.

Nick-Z

A diastatic yeast was exactly what I wanted to avoid.
Are wine yeasts diastatic? I know that sounds like a dumb question but I have no experience with using a wine yeast in beer.

Jack-Arandir

Having brewed some questionable stuff I would let it run its course through most of its primary brewing then find a high tolerance yeast like the above mentioned or as I have used Ec-1118 which has a tolerance up to 18%. That is assuming you have more sugar than the current yeast can survive. A lot of the wine and mead yeasts can run up past 12% alcohol fairly easily with some going much higher. I keep some K1-V1116 on hand just encase there is a good peach crop it will run to 18% alcohol, but its Fermentation is fast which is good for unprocessed stuff like Peaches. Your Stout isn't ruined it has just become an adventure is all.

z-bob

Sounds like you solved the problem. Next time you can still ferment the RIS without watering down, just look for a super high gravity yeast. There are some good articles about fermenting high ABV beers-- some secret techniques can keep the yeast chewing.
Good luck with your beer!

Nick-Z

I doubt any domesticated wine yeasts are diastatic, but I don't know. I can't see where it would benefit them at all.
ETA: somehow I quoted the wrong post; I meant to quote Nick. :doh:

DBhomebrew

k1-v1116 yeast is what I leaning towards using for the bottle conditioning. It's killer yeast so it should pretty much take over.
Should I add that yeast in the bottling bucket or a few days beforehand? I don't want bottle bombs. I've already had that.

Nick-Z

With your OG now in a normal (albeit high) range, I doubt you'll need to add yeast for bottling.
When the beer hits terminal gravity that's the yeast giving up on complex sugars. The priming sugar is super simple. The residual yeast will handle it.
If you are going to add new yeast just because, might as well use the CBC-1. It's what it's marketed for.

gaviga

Do I sprinkle a little in each bottle or just toss some in the bottling bucket?
I do have CBC-1. I got in case I ever needed it and now seems to be the time. I'll go with that. Lallemand says it is a killer strain anyway.

AlexKay

Use CBC-1 for bottling/keg conditioning. Don’t use champagne yeast as it WILL take off and create bottle bombs! Use CBC-1 in your bottling bucket
I have had similar problems. Use a higher gravity beer yeast with a starter to finish your beer. Give the 05 time to finish before you do this just to see how well it does. I have used Nottingham to get up to a 12% beer but it's not really designed to do that, so I am not recommending it, but using it as an example of how a yeast can be brought along.
Good luck!

VikeMan

I made an American Barleywine with US-05 that went 1.139 -> 1.041 (12.9%). It took forever to finish, but it made it. Bottled with CBC-1, but it never really carbonated (which luckily, is not so big an issue for a barleywine.)

Steveruch

Stout grain bills contain lots of malts that are not very fermentable. Beersmith doesn't care, and will invariably predict higher than likely attenuation for these kinds of beers.

Komodo

I've gotten 12% from that yeast and have read posts from people claiming up to 15%.

hotbeer

Looks like you already sorted it. I made a 15% RIS and just let the yeast (05) go as far as they could. You mentioned that it would stall at 1.050, but that is an unknown. If I absolutely wanted it to be a specific abv then I’d dilute. If I was going for the moon then let it ride and see how strong they are which is what I did (these beers can sit for a long time). After a long rest, I added CBC-1 to let it carb. The carb didn’t end up overwhelming, but it is decent for that big of a beer and seems inline with most of the similar commercial offerings.

gaviga

Some here seem to say that a higher OG is better and don't dilute. But alcohol amounts in the beer also play a part of the tasting notes and everything else about a beer.
So if you are wanting to make a particular recipe, then I'd think that the OG would be a fairly important thing to stay close to. Otherwise you aren't making that particular beer IMO.

Odie

Just a note - CBC-1 does not ferment maltotriose so you will need to use corn sugar, a small amount (3 - 4 oz/5 gallons) to bottle condition.

Nick-Z

I would just let the US-05 do it's thing.
I do a RIS that goes for a month on US-05 before adding maple syrup to go even further. I think I hit 13.5 on one batch.
an RIS is gonna sit around for months anyway. plenty of time for the last few points while aging in a keg.

Nick-Z

Yeah, I screwed up here. My mash efficiency was thirty percent lower than it should have been. And I had extra wort so I boiled a bit longer. Well, I did it too long, which was dumb.

BrewMan13

Good tip. I always use corn sugar for priming sugar so I'm covered there.

G_robertus

A better way to adjust gravity is often to just add DME if the pre boil volume is right but your efficiency has suffered a bit in a higher than usual gravity brew.

VikeMan

Recently got to 14% with US05 (technically a blend with 1056, but it's the same stuff) going from 1.140 - 1.034. The alcohol tolerances are not hard rules, the yeast will do what it wants. Just pitch a large, healthy starter, oxygenate, ferment at the right temperature, and be patient.

Dancy

I've gotten to 16% ABV with US-05 before, I'm sure it would've done the job eventually. You won't need bottling yeast at the current gravity though depending on the time in the fermenter. Also be careful with adding yeast at bottling. Use the same yeast or special conditioning yeast or other yeast not capable of consuming complex sugars, just in case something is left. Most wine/champagne yeast can't ferment complex sugars, but K1-V1116 reportedly is.

bwible

Just a small nit. US-05 and WY1056 may both be descended from "Chico," but are no longer the same strain.

G_robertus

+1 on CBC-1. I use for it Belgian ales along with almost 7oz of corn sugar for carbonation (5G batch) in Belgian Bottles (thick glass). I follow the Lallemand website directions and hydrate in (distilled) water at the recommended temp for several minutes before gently stirring it and the corn sugar into the bottling bucket. The carbonation levels turn out great.

Nick-Z

The only time I’ve ever had a yeast go higher than tolerance was when I had an infection and it was actually brett or whatever eating the extra sugars and raising the alcohol. I’ve found these yeast companies are pretty solid with their products.

gaviga

Definitely not infected, just a very strong barleywine. It didn't carbonate properly either afterwards, I think I just absolutely maxed it out. I've read other reports going to 15% or somewhere thereabout. I wouldn't recommend it either, I just wanted to assure OP that it would probably handle it. I vaguely remember the official documents saying 12% as max in the past btw.

RM-MN

As long as it doesn't get stuck too high, I'll live with it.
I opened the bucket and gave the wort a stir and threw in some yeast nutrient today. Hopefully that helps out the yeast.

Miraculix

I was told directly by a Lallemond rep that you don't need to hydrate their yeasts. He said that just introduces the opportunity for something to go wrong. That's why I went to direct pitching from the packet. I have not had a problem with my yeast taking off.

VikeMan

I've read that direct pitching dry yeast into wort can kill up to 50% of the yeast. I've also read that yeast will double their numbers in about 90 minutes. That means that direct pitching can delay the fermentation by about 90 minutes. Is that a critical amount of time?

Odie

This 50% dead thing has been debunked already.

RM-MN

The (effective) pitch rate is about more than just how fast fermentation takes off. It also directly impacts how much growth happens. The yeast will "want" to propagate to about the same critical mass either way. If a lower number of cells gets to that critical mass successfully, i.e. they had enough nutrients, sterols, etc., there will have been more growth as compared with the higher pitch rate. Typically, this will mean more ester production, which may be good or bad, depending on the brewer's goals.
If that lower intital effective pitch rate isn't able to reach that critical mass (limited resources, cell wall material constraint), the yeast may struggle to reach full attenuation, fail to clean up diacetyl, etc.

@Dancy was talking about bottle conditioning, not primary fermentation. Did the Lallemand rep you talked to specifically mention bottle conditioning? Finished beer is a different environment than unfermented wort.

Jack-Arandir

just pitched US-05 into 1.130 wort...will be adding 2# maple syrup later...
will see what happens. But I'm expecting to let it ferment out for a long time.

Nick-Z

Notice I used the words, "up to"? If it only kills 1% my statement still stands. If it kills more than 50%, then my statement is wrong.