Shorten the boil

landoa

Hi,
I brewed a Dry Irish Stout today - Brewfather - and boiled 30 minutes as suggested at 10m45s here:
Thinking about shortening the boil from 60 to 30 for this: Electric Pale Ale ... hop additions start late in the boil at 20 minutes. Is it a good candidate for a 30 minute boil?
Do you have experience with shorter boil times? What were the results?

VikeMan

I've done short boils. They work fine, as long as you don't use a malt with lots of DMS precursor (SMM). Looking at your linked pale ale recipe, I think you should be ok.

BrewnWKopperKat

Yes.
For me, it depends on the style of beer.
For hop forward styles, a shorter boil produces good results.
For malt forward styles I generally do a 45 or 60 min boil.
A couple of "exBEERiments" to consider:
hoppy: A BIAB version of American Pale Ale - 15 Minute Cascade Pale Alemalty: Brew this (link) using a 20 min boil & a 90 min boil.

Red-over-White

The abv on the Evil Twin recipe lol

Oleson-M.D.

We have NEVER boiled less than 60 minutes, and our boils today are all 90 minutes. A high OG beer will see a 120 minute boil.

AlexKay

What's the point? If you shorten the boil and everything works out great, you've save 15-30 minutes. If everything doesn't come out great, you have a beer that tastes like cooked cabbage and creamed corn.
I've occasionally done shorter boils when I was going for the absolute palest possible beer, and didn't want any caramelization during the boil. That's about the only reason I can think of.

Kickass

Shorting the boil is not right or wrong. It simply yields different results. The bigger point is to understand what’s going to happen if you choose that path.
I frequently boil for less than 60 minutes.
Conversely, what’s the point of boiling longer than 30 or 45 minutes if you don’t have to?
This is a possibility but should have some context since it’s a pretty unlikely result with a dry Irish stout. Very lightly malted/kilned barley (ie Pilsen malt) has higher concentrations of SMM —> DMS. When brewing with a large volume of these malts, a shorter boil may not volatilize the DMS. DMS volatilizes at a pretty low temp, around 100f. So, mashing and heating up to boil are already pushing DMS out of your wort. Then the boil, obviously. My point, yes DMS is a consideration but probably not unless you’re using a large amount of Pilsen malt, shortening the mash and boil.

Oleson-M.D.

How many mega breweries, and/or craft breweries, employ a 30 minute boil?

AlexKay

I'm not sure where this is coming from. With vigorously boiling, 212 F wort, SMM has a half life of ~40 minutes. This half life doubles roughly every 10 F you lower the temperature. (This is why boiling at altitude -- which drops the boiling temperature a handful of degrees -- can cause issues.)

kevin58

Check out the Brulosophy series called "short and shoddy". I've use the technique many times with no negative effects.

landoa

I'm always looking for a shortcut ... that doesn't diminish the final result.
Also, I often have a strict window of time, so if I can't fit the brew in, then I just don't do it. Depending on the day, those 30 minutes could make the difference.

BrewnWKopperKat

Numerous podcasts (e.g. Experimental Brewing, Basic Brewing Radio, ... ) have also discussed the idea of shorter mash & shorter boil.
A couple of Brulosophy links to get everyone started.
exBEERiment | Boil Length: 30 Minutes vs. 60 Minutes In A Pale AleMash Length: 60 Minutes vs. 20 Minutes | The Brü Club xBmt SeriesIIRC, Experimental Brewing podcast talks about brewing with a 20 min mash / 20 min boil.
Is DME an option? For me (at the moment), it works well for hop forward styles.

landoa

Looks like the guy typically does a 30 min mash and 20-30 minute boil and he's almost always satisfied. I think i'll give it a shot!

Oleson-M.D.

Again...how many major breweries and small craft breweries employ a 30 minute boil? If not, why not?

AlexKay

It's a reasonable question. The answer may be surface-area-to-volume ratio, which is an order of magnitude larger in home brewing, which may mean fewer problems with DMS. Just an idea.

Sammy86

I just did a 30 minute boil on a heavy Pils American Wheat beer, no DMS issues...
Now would I necessarily do it all the time? No, mainly because I like consistency when it comes to my recipes. Would I do it again? Yes!
Have to keep in mind that the grains we're using are modified...not like back in the day...and some people are more sensitive to it than others...however people are going to do what they want to do...so why let it bother you so much?

Oleson-M.D.

I have had DMS. It is a deal breaker. That's why we do 90 minute boils. For those who like to roll the dice, go ahead. This might be your lucky day.

VikeMan

Mega breweries? I don't know.
Craft breweries? A lot (based on my not quite ramdom sampling).

doug293cz

Yes, DMS evaporates at very low temps compared to boiling, but you cannot boil off the DMS until it has been created by the thermal decomposition of SMM, which occurs at much higher temps. As noted by @AlexKay, the half life of SMM at 212°F (100°C) varies from 30 - 40 minutes, depending on pH.
SMM decomposition rate is a function of temperature (and pH.) Since the temp is 212°F (100°C) when boiling (at sea level) regardless of boil vigor, boil vigor does not affect the rate of SMM decomposition. Boil vigor will affect the rate of DMS elimination, once formed, but this is of little consequence since SMM decomposition is the rate limiting step.
The rate of SMM decomposition is significant down to about 170°F, so it is important not to cool slowly in a covered vessel, or with still wort, if there is significant remaining SMM after the boil, as this can result in excess DMS in the final beer.
Brew on

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Kickass

@doug293cz thanks for pointing out the decomposition rate/temp of SMM. I erroneously assumed SMM was converted to DMS at a temp close to what DMS volatilized at.
I’ll maintain, a 90 minute boil is not wrong, nor is a 30 minute. It’s more of having a reason for what you’re doing. I’ll also double down on the fact that you’re probably more likely to win the lottery than have detectable levels of DMS in a dry stout boiled for 30 minutes.

doug293cz

I don't disagree. With modern malts (lower SMM) long boils should seldom be necessary.
Brew on

Jim-R

I doubt that you would notice any difference with somewhat shorter mash times and boil times with modern malts. This is an interesting perspective in this video.

RM-MN

I notice the difference. I get an extra hour to do other things in my life by doing half hour mash and half hour boil instead of an hour each. At my age, that extra hour is important.

Miraculix

I think dms is a conspiracy theory  did short boils, did long boils, never ever experienced cooked corn flavour in any of my beers. Did that with pale ale, did that with pilsner malt. Nothing. Just beer.

BrewnWKopperKat

A data point (using one brewing process and one brand of Pilsner malt made at a point in time).
Lab Data on Pils Malt Boil Length exBEERiment | Brülosophy
[...]​​"We’d already determined tasters were incapable of reliably distinguishing a Pils malt based beer boiled for 90 minutes from one boiled for only 30 minutes, but that left me wondering if the level of DMS in the short boiled beer may simply have been below the threshold of perception, or if there really wasn’t any present in either sample. After a brief back-and-forth, I sent samples from each batch to [the] lab [...]​​[...]​​| CONCLUSION |​​[...] neither the 30 minute boil nor 90 minute boil samples contained measurable levels of DMS."​​
eta: for many flavors, the threshold of perception is known to vary greatly based on the individual (super-tasters), the circumstances (don't try an American light lager after a Janapeno Pepper hazy), and probably a bunch of other stuff.

AlexKay

I'm generally a big fan of "you don't need to do X with modern malts" where X equals beta-glucan or protein rests or triple decoction or whatever. From where I'm sitting, though, I can't think of a reason a modern, well-modified malt would have lower levels of SMM. It should mainly be a function of kilning temperature, so as long as we're not comparing to historic air-dried malts, why would things have changed?

BrewnWKopperKat

... back to the original question ...

I think it is a good candidate for a 30 min boil (given the grain bill and hop timings (link to full recipe)):

Steveruch

30 minute boil on this. 6 days in the bottle.

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Oleson-M.D.

I do not buy this, based on our experience. We have had beers with levels of DMS that were easily noticeable, with a 60 minute boil.
Employing a 90 minute boil has solved these problems.

TheCache

Reading this thread got me thinking about different malts brands and some old techniques being revisited like floor malting etc. Found this older HBT thread that speaks directly to that. It is still talking primarily about pilsner and pale malts, but it seems like some modern malts, done with older methods may be less modified.
So there is a place for longer boils, the trick is using it where needed.

landoa

Well, my favorite brew is my beer, so then I have a quandary
Seriously, I like to brew and like to test new methods that make the whole process more fun than it already is. So, that's why I threw this question out there.
Thanks for everyone's 2 cents!

BrewnWKopperKat

When I was involved (2017-2019) in regional (400+ entry) home brew competitions as a steward, one of the things that I experienced was that people have very different levels of sensitivity to off flavors (including DMS). "Can't taste DMS? We'll have you judge browns rather than lagers." And, as I mentioned earlier, there were are super-tasters.

Brew how you like; like what you brew.

VikeMan

Just gonna put this here. "Modification" is the degree to which the grain is germinated before being halted. It has nothing at all to do with kilning. More modification doesn't result in less SMM. If anything, it could be argued that more modification could produce more SMM (unmalted grains have little to no SMM), but I haven't seen have any solid data on that. My understanding is that the important drivers of SMM levels are the type/crop of barley used (higher nitrogen correlates to higher SMM produced, 6-row produces more than 2-row, etc.), and the temperature and length of kilning.

mabrungard

If you're using a grist without any pils or lightly kilned malts, you should be able to shorten the boil time and still avoid DMS when brewing near sea level. If you reside at high-elevation, then you may have to boil longer to achieve effective DMS volatilization. The other reason that this beer can be a good candidate for short boil is that there will be a lot of roast flavor that would cover minor DMS presence anyhow. That 30 min boil should be in an open kettle. The boil doesn't need to be volcanic, but it needs to "roll" nicely.
Do recognize that a recipe intended for a typical 60 min boil time would probably need adjustment to correct the bittering and post-boil OG.

CascadesBrewer

I have been mostly moving to 30 minute boils for many recipes. I started with my hoppy beers and have been playing with moving others from 60 to 30. I have not noticed any issues or real impact. There is often a surprisingly small difference in the hop addition needed between 30 min and 60 min to get the same calculated IBUs.
A few years ago I did a number of single grain batches with 30 minutes boils, which included Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner in the mix. If any of those beers had DMS in them, neither I nor the number of homebrewers that tasted them detected it.
I am still a bit cautious. For a recent 100% Pilsner batch I gave it a 60 minute boil...just to be safe.

Oleson-M.D.

I think we need to do 15 minute boils. That would save at least 15 minutes! Enough time to hit a few golf balls at the driving range.

Kickass

Knew it’d only be a matter of time before you came around to it!