Flavor of Malted v. Unmalted Grains

Johnnywhiskey

Is there any definitive information on the flavors imparted by malted v. unmalted grains?  I've been making rye and wheated bourbons with unmalted grains (via the magic of Pintoshine's enzymes), and the last go around I used malted rye instead (70% corn / 30% malted rye (and still using enzymes)).  It's still fermenting now, but I'm curious as to what the flavor difference will be?  And how about for wheat, malted v unmalted?  
A side benefit of using the malted grains was that I got a better sugar conversion than I had gotten before.  I think the extra boost of enzymes from the malt helped, and maybe the malt added some additional enzymatic activity that isn't present in the two enzymes in Pintoshine's set.  
Thanks, JW

still_stirrin

Simple.
Take a handfull of unmalted grains and chew on them, making a gum in your mouth.  Take the gum out and rinse your mouth out.
Then take a handfull of malted grains and chew on them, making a gum in your mouth.
Which is better? What makes it better?  Wouldn't you want to make your beer out of the best one?
You be the judge.  Report what you've learned.
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
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My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

woodshed

I find a superior flavor with malted grains. Brings out the complexity.
Enzymes used in conjunction with malts will increase yield and IMO improve the flavor as well.
Booner's All Corn is the only time I rely solely on enzymes for conversion. If you want nothing but the taste of fresh corn squeezins it's the golden ticket.

moosemilk

Check link in my sig about getting the most using enzymes. I consistently hit 1.065 with a 1.8 lb per gallon grain bill using enzymes. I also use malts, the enzymes just help with better conversion.
I've done all unmalted with barley, barley oats and corn, and corn. With the exception of the all corn, like woodshed stated, it comes out very plain and lacking any depth to it, even with the corn oats barley.
Even just a little malt adds that complexity.

woodshed

Spot on!

shadylane

Malt definitely adds a better flavor, even under modified or chit malt that needs enzymes for conversion.
It also appears yeast likes malt better.

woodshed

Not sure yeast likes malt better. Combo is the best bang for the buck. Ultra Ferm even if just put into the fermenter will provide an improved yield and flavor profile. Possibly a higher control of PH with enzymes. Small price to pay for the return.

Jimbo

Malting grain increases the amino acid lysine, reduces anti-nutrients (like phytic acid and lectins), disables enzyme inhibitors and makes nutrients more accessible.
There's very little Im sure about in this world,  but from my experience  yeast definitely likes malt better.In theory there's no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes.   Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion

Bushman

Most of the micro-distillers I converse with use 100% malted grain.For New and Novice Distillers
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MitchyBourbon

I have never tried using malted corn in bourbon but this thread has convinced me this is something I must try.  Thanks everyone.I'm goin the distance...

jedneck

I have never tried using malted corn in bourbon but this thread has convinced me this is something I must try.  Thanks everyone.I am in the works on doing just this. 66% malted corn and 34% malted white wheat. Have one strip done and the low wines smell amazing.welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder

Jimbo

I have made 100% malted corn whiskey, and in my experience the flavor is very pronounced. There is a sharp grassy aroma and flavor to it that, for me at least, has been an acquired tasted. Very distinctive.
I have not tried blending it with other grains, or with unmalted corn, yet.
I prefer malted grains for wheat, barley, and rye, but the corn is so different that I'm not sure.
Maybe it's the way I dry my corn malt, but I've done one batch with sprouts on, and one with them removed, and both have a similar flavor.
Anyone else feel this way about corn malt? Not that it's bad, but that I find the biggest difference between malted vs. unmalted with corn.Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...

still_stirrin

'has been an aquired taste'   LMAO.   In other words,  took me aback for a bit, but Im well past that and swilling away happily now.   ?
    .... or YAM?   

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   Your Yam juice is epic MC.   Im still enjoying the hell out of that,  small precious sips at a time.In theory there's no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes.   Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion

Boomtown

'has been an aquired taste'   LMAO.   In other words,  took me aback for a bit, but Im well past that and swilling away happily now.   ?Yes, exactly! At first I thought it was too far from my "normal" whiskey, but after some time on oak, and then some more time in my belly, I have come to enjoy it on its own terms.
Combining some of it in a glass with some YamJuice might start a real cage fight.
I'm looking forward to a chance to try some of Woodshed's Smoke Shine soon.

Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me...

Jimbo

The exception would be a wit or lambic, where the brewers use unmalted wheat for a portion of the grainbill.
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

NgrainD

OK, I've read about the process of malting, wetting the grain and letting it sprout, then knocking off the sprouts.  I've even got a little of Jed's Dirty Bastard hovering in the back row of my liquor library.  But frankly have no idea about the mechanics of doing it.
Anyone want to take a moment to explain the steps in the process?“…Let’s do this one more time....”

still_stirrin

wet the grain, let it sprout,  knock  the sprouts off.     

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  Sorry couldnt resist.  

  

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In theory there's no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes.   Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion

jedneck

Bobdoe did a good write up.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 32&t=55381

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Experience is something you gain shortly after you need it.

Johnnywhiskey

wet the grain, let it sprout,  knock  the sprouts off.     

  

  Sorry couldnt resist.  

  

Jimbo, you forgot to add:  dry the sprouted grain (before knocking the sprouts off).  Key to get the moisture content back down so it doesn't mold before you can make beer.
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

still_stirrin

Boom if you get over towards my little hole in to mountian I would be glad to show you how I do it.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=54820 here's a good read on malting.welcome aboard some of us are ornery old coots but if you do a lot of
reading and don't ask stupid questions you'll be alright most are
big help
Dunder

still_stirrin

Malted corn too?  I would be interested to know if there is any commercially available malted corn.
For the other grains (rye, wheat and barley), I'm finding that malted grains from the HBS are not much more than food grade unmalted grains--so I'll probably switch over to all malted grains (besides the corn).  Plus there are so many different malting styles to experiment with at the HBS.

MDH

Corn, like oats, is most commonly rolled instead of malted for brewing processes. Because of the difficulty with malting corn, its easier to heat (gelatinize) and roll under high pressure rollers. That will make the starch available to mashing enzymes, although the flaked corn itself doesn't have enzymes to convert its own starch to fermentable sugar.  Its usually mashed (in beers) with base malt (barley 2-row or 6-row).
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

RockinRockies

Processing the malt does cost.  The price of raw wheat is roughly 6.50 per bushel (60 lb).  And a 50 lb bag of wheat malt runs $32-35.  So, buying barley, rye, wheat malt is economic depending on the scale of the production.  
Buying livestock barley, oats, and corn  (unmalted) is quite reasonable if you have the equipment to process the grains to convert the starches.  It can be done and several members here do it at home.  Me....I buy malted grains.  But my production rate can tolerate the expense.  Plus, I brew beer too and those are best with commercially malted grains.
YMMV.
ssAttention new distillers: Cranky's spoon feed info
My LM/VM & Potstill: My build thread
My Cadco hotplate modification thread: Hotplate Build
My stock pot gin still:  stock pot potstill
My 5-grain Bourbon recipe: Special K

RockinRockies

Unmalted has a flavor that is drier, grassier and somewhat musty depending on your cuts. It will have a very slight smoky edge that malted grain, ironically, does not impart.
Malted grain is definitely richer; it has more caramel, marshmallow and gentle chocolate tones. It's what gives Scotch its backbone.The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.

Sonofliberty75

I have made 100% malted corn whiskey, and in my experience the flavor is very pronounced. There is a sharp grassy aroma and flavor to it that, for me at least, has been an acquired tasted. Very distinctive.
I have not tried blending it with other grains, or with unmalted corn, yet.
I prefer malted grains for wheat, barley, and rye, but the corn is so different that I'm not sure.
Maybe it's the way I dry my corn malt, but I've done one batch with sprouts on, and one with them removed, and both have a similar flavor.
Anyone else feel this way about corn malt? Not that it's bad, but that I find the biggest difference between malted vs. unmalted with corn.My only attempt at corn whiskey was 50% Home malted and 50% booners. The flavor was super creamy, hot buttered popcorn.
No complexity. Just straight up summer sweet corn I grew up with back east.
Regarding unmalted grains. I've been running fairly big batches making ridiculous quantities at home scale because I want to fill decent sized barrels (I don't like sticks and cubes) which is why I bought tons of feed grain... I would avoid feed grade, unmalted grains at ALL costs, especially with on grain ferments. It's just so frigging grungy, funky, vegetal, grainy, earthy... You name it.
Unpleasant on the palate and nose. I learned the hard way because I'm stubborn and cheap. No thanks to feed grains except corn, and in that regard enzymes make life simple.

Sonofliberty75

MUSTY!!!!!! Exactly!  That is the word I was actually trying to find. Thank you. Unmalted must, AFAIC, generates a musty funk that is not worth the cost savings

squigglefunk

The way I malt my corn is take two 5 gal buckets and drill a bunch of 3/16 holes all over it, and the lid. Put about 6lbs of whole corn in it and then set that bucket in the other one  without holes in it and fill with water until the water covers the corn about a few inches and let soak for 24 hrs or so. Then take that bucket of corn out and set it on top of the other bucket and rotate it every so often every day. I usual let the acrospire on the corn get to about the length of the kernel or however long you want it. Anyway that's how I do it. I've read you want to keep it in the light to keep mold from growing on it

Ben

Malted corn to me is the best flavor. Mine shine tastes like sweet corn when I use malted corn, it has a earthy sweet corn flavor I like!

RockinRockies

Malting brings out a wider variety of chemicals that lead to a more complex flavor. I don't necessarily think it is always better. Think of it more like a tool - sometime you might want malted, sometimes you don't.The Librarian . Beginner's Guide to Making Distilled Spirits . Spirit Style Guide . Developing Flavor Profiles .  HD Recent Activity .  Google Search HDAnd there's the interesting part. Irish whiskey typically uses some unmalted barley, yes? It must be in smaller quantities because I don't pick up on it. Although, I'm talking about rot gut like Jameson and the like. I'd have to go revisit red breast 12 to cross check

RockinRockies

lord knows it can't compare to the high and mighty sweetfeed  

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squigglefunk

We all have preferences.

Best I could find when I was looking for "traditional" Irish grist was 10-15% unmalted oat, 30-40% unmalted barley, remainder malt. Teeling pot still is a fairly good example of 50 malt 50 unmalted.  
Single malt is 100% malted, and white/unaged can be funky too. But it seems to come around a lot faster in the aging process. Not all of it vanishes though, you can still taste that funk in single malt like Aberfeldy (which is delicious, and the funk adds to it) you can also taste it in certain blends like Monkey Shoulder.
Unmalted grains have a different flavor, more grassy, earth, vegetal, feedstock pen type funk.

Find some commercial examples that have the grains you are interested in, and do a side by side on them. A good whiskey bar is perfect for it, since you won't be stuck with a bottle of something you don't care for. A good comparison is teelings 4 standard whiskeys, if you can taste them side by side and recognize the finishing effects you can get a good sense of what unmalted grains, corn, and malted barley do for you, at a fairly young age (with some real wide cuts, probably too wide). I think the same could be done with Bushmills, though it is older whiskey.:)

Johnnywhiskey

Yes. It varies wildly though with no set number. The reason is that there was a tax on malted barley and none on unmalted. It eventually became tradition as a way to differentiate Irish from Scottish whiskey.The Librarian . Beginner's Guide to Making Distilled Spirits . Spirit Style Guide . Developing Flavor Profiles .  HD Recent Activity .  Google Search HD

squigglefunk

lord knows it can't compare to the high and mighty sweetfeed  

  

  

Hahaha! You got me! Although the sweetfeed made at home has much tighter cuts. I'm not a fan of that brittle, shiny, metallic wide heads profile of cheap Irish whiskey

woodshed

I keep trying to figure if that funk on the backend of single malt scotch that I almost always find in every single scotch I've ever had (I describe as crayon wax) is deep tails or the grain. Does anyone else pick up on that stale wax linger after the finish on most commercial scotch single malts?

I'm interested to see once we begin to sparge and use SafAle 04 if that feed grain profile tames a bit and I don't ends up with the excessive funk that's been disappointing.